Book II design question

[BasiliskWrangler]

I have an idea to run past everyone, just to get your opinions.

As a way to limit the reloading of games in an attempt to get better payout on chests, how does everyone feel about this: the game cannot be loaded or saved more than once per minute.

The idea is that when playing normally, most people rarely load or save a game more than once every minute, so this rule wouldn't affect you if you played legitimately. However, if you save your game just before opening a chest, and then want to load your game because you don't like the payout, the system would deny you that function until a full minute had passed.

This rule would be voided if:
- Your character dies (i.e. save the game before you try to disarm a trap, and then your character dies on your disarm attempt). You could reload immediately.
- You completely exit the game, then restart. We can't track a minute outside the game, however that whole process would still be a hassle.

The rule would still be enforced if:
- You save the game and exit to the main menu, thinking you could reload from there. Nope- the system would make you wait your full minute.

Finally, this could be a option at the start of the game, and players who opt to use it would get a better "end-game ranking" than players who don't.

Thoughts everyone?

[Dr. G]

I would suggest you just leave this feauture as it is in B1, the problem is not based on the game actually, but based on the character, if you want to save/reload all the time you can do it. But it makes the game a lot longer (and boring).

I don't see any downsides t the one minute idea tough, I usually save my game before changing map areas or at the begginning and just before exiting the game, so I don't think I would even notice.

But I am pretty sure a lot of re-rollers will complain about this new feature.

Sugestion: Maybe at the beggining of the game you could choose to have this feature activated or not, and If you play with it activated get some mores exp points or something like that?

[krisklef]

BW,

I haven't really been paying all that much attention to the whole reload-for-loot discussion, but I feel that it has NEVER been a "temptation"; the only slight disappointments I've had were when an unexpected demise (is there really any other kind . . .) caused me to reload to a point previous to a nice loot grab. But I accept the 4 g.p. or useless weapon frags because I shouldn't have gone toe-to-toe with that taurax, or whatever.

My point being that, as the game is not tournament-oriented or competitive between players in any way, it doesn't seem too important to add a feature that might somehow turn out to be an inconvenience down the road. Book I seemed to be balanced/designed with the idea that you take what you get the first time, putting re-rolling into the category of "exploit." But if folks want to re-roll to make the game fun, it doesn't seem right to penalize it. And there might be no other way to come up with all-adamantine armor and the 8 specific amulets you want before the game is mostly over; if that's the goal, then let lez bon temps re-roulez.

The only important point I bear in mind when reading posts on this subject is that anyone who in any way intimates that the game is "easy" or "unbalanced" should be assumed to play without this exploit. Rerolling loot significantly reduces one's judgment of balance.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Personally I would have loot automatically created when entering a new area, like Black Isle Studios did with Icewind Dale.

That was the original idea, but that doesn't stop people who also reload for picking locks, disarming traps, or frequently steal things and don't want to deal with getting caught.

Okay, well as I said it would have to be an optional setting since its no fun to force people to play a certain way. We want to make sure Book II plays the same as Book I, but with optional rules that can be applied if desired.

[VPeric]

Finally, this could be a option at the start of the game, and players who opt to use it would get a better "end-game ranking" than players who don't.

I think the idea is a decent solution for the problem, but I disagree with this particular bit - why make it optional? Because it's not fun to "force people to play in a certain way"? You're only "forcing" them to play the game how you imagined it'd be played (because I'm sure you didn't plan the game around reloading). Furthermore, while the feature might seem restricting at first, I do believe it leads to a better gameplay experiance, which the players disabling it won't experiance (or, to put it another way, the only people who'd use it are those who already don't reload). I may not be making a very coherent point, but I'm still vehemently against making it optional.

If you ask me, the way to fixing this problem is to make chest rewards less variable - getting a couple of empty flasks and an apple for defeating a goblin warlord is just not acceptable, but if that chest was supposed to be "worth" 500 gp, then anything with an approximate value of 450-500 would be just fine. Sure, there would still be reloading, but it'll matter much less in the long run.

[realmzmaster]

I see no purpose in the one save per minute rule. It would only serves to make the game longer for re-rollers. And if someone is willing to keep re-rolling until he/she gets what he/she wants it does not matter. They already have more patience than I do. If you make it optional that is fine. But, any who is willing to keep re-rolling for the uber character or looking for better loot or picking a lock is not going to be deterred by this rule.

Book II is to have an end-game ranking? You mean at the end of the game I could be rank as Knight of the loincloth?

[rocketman28]

I would suggest you just leave this feauture as it is in B1, the problem is not based on the game actually, but based on the character, if you want to save/reload all the time you can do it. But it makes the game a lot longer (and boring).

I don't see any downsides t the one minute idea tough, I usually save my game before changing map areas or at the begginning and just before exiting the game, so I don't think I would even notice.

But I am pretty sure a lot of re-rollers will complain about this new feature.

Sugestion: Maybe at the beggining of the game you could choose to have this feature activated or not, and If you play with it activated get some mores exp points or something like that?

I would agree with this I think this would be a great idea

[Axxaxx]

Personally I would have loot automatically created when entering a new area, like Black Isle Studios did with Icewind Dale.

That was the original idea, but that doesn't stop people who also reload for picking locks, disarming traps, or frequently steal things and don't want to deal with getting caught.

Okay, well as I said it would have to be an optional setting since its no fun to force people to play a certain way. We want to make sure Book II plays the same as Book I, but with optional rules that can be applied if desired.

I say go with the jagged alliance method, a big number of rolls are rolled at the start of an area and then taken one by one for every action you perform. This completely prevents picklock reload/disarm traps reload/reroll loot/reload before a death blow.

Or you could go with the 1 minute limit, that is a very good idea I guess. But Still it not as efficient as other methods in making the pick lock and skulldudgery skill as useful as other skills.

The way the game plays now, they're worth at best 3 points in them and no more. Thieves are totally pointless in this game.

[micks]

I have no objections at all to either pre-rolling on entering a particular area in game or the one minute rule, however, I don't really find it all that important. I don't use the the save/load method for better rolls or loot as it'd ruin immersion for me, but if for someone that happens to be the most enjoyable way to play, I'd simply let them have it. I also find constant reloading pretty tiresome so maybe in a way they deserve the extra goods after all

[BasiliskWrangler]

Hey, the easiest way for us to do it is to not change a thing. I'm very happy with keeping the same system as in Book I and letting people "play how they want".

It just seems like a week doesn't go by that someone doesn't say they want chests pre-filled at game start, or a set random seed so things aren't really random, or limits put on saves. We are trying to gauge if these opinions are of the silent majority or just a loud minority.

[Axxaxx]

I still don't understand the big issue about reroll loot, I've never done it cause it's boring, and by the way the loot in this game is always pretty modest.

But I'm worried about pick lock and skulldudgery, the way the system works now they are not very attractive, with 3 point ins both you can finish the game AND get open all the doors/dirarm all the traps, just save try and reload.

That is what ruins being thief in my opinion, and thief is my favorite role.

[Rollor]

Let re-rollers re-rol. If thats the thing they like then let them.

If you ask me, the way to fixing this problem is to make chest rewards less variable - getting a couple of empty flasks and an apple for defeating a goblin warlord is just not acceptable, but if that chest was supposed to be "worth" 500 gp, then anything with an approximate value of 450-500 would be just fine. Sure, there would still be reloading, but it'll matter much less in the long run.

I would welcome this so much!!!

[Dragonlady]

Okay, my 2 cps worth...have the 'optional' if you must but don't make the chests/loot set the instant you enter an area. That would make exploration unencouraging. That frightful dash from Arindel to Bordertown and to Blackwater at low levels not worth it. (To get to trainers) I wouldn't like having to do quests in certain order to get to a certain place on the map and then to the next. That's why I loved Book 1 so much. You could go anywhere you wanted if you dared. Sometimes you lived and got great loot, sometimes you died. As for reloading, I admit, I did it sometimes, especially where traps/doors were concerned. I also did reloading before/during some battles because I get carpal tunnel in my wrists and having to spent another hour doing a battle over again is just too much. Okay, my coppers worth of opinion has been offered.

[mkreku]

I have no self discipline. As soon as I realized that chests (and corpse loot) were random every time, I couldn't stop myself from rerolling over and over, looking for the best possible tweak. I didn't do this in my first playthrough of the game, but in my second.. And I must say that I felt a bit cheated by all the items that I had missed during my "honest" playthrough! I mean, in that game I must have been unlucky with my chests or something because I didn't get one third of the loot I got when I used the reload tactic.

Since I'm such a weak-willed character, I would prefer it if items were hand placed in each individual chest and on each individual loot dropping enemy. If that's not possible, then I'd prefer it if everything was randomized ONCE upon entering an area. The last case scenario is the one load per minute feature, but I am not sure that would stop me..

[realmzmaster]

BW is trying to gauge our opinions. He is thinking about a solution to a problem that IMHO does not exist. If someone wants to re-roll let them you do not have to play that way. What you are asking the designer to do is set limits in the game because you can not set limits on yourself.

As mkreku said it is a lack of self discipline or because you like to play that way. Part of the replayability of the game is the ability to play different classes and the randomness of the treasure.

If you you have set items in each chest it affects the replayability. If I play a fighter and go through the game I now know what items are each chest. If I replay the game as a thief, I know the locations of all the good thief items.

One way around this problem is to have all the items randomly assigned to each chest and all lock probabilities are set upon character creation. This would help to perserve the replayability. But then all the chest could have moldy old socks in them, not likely but possible. All the lock possibilities could set to 3 of 4. I have a 75% chance of opening all the locks.

The one save per minute rule will not stop the re-roller.

Why is it if you kill a goblin warlord you expect to find a treasure trove? If the monster is carrying a quest item that is the major treasure you just cannot sell it. If the monster is a run of the mill goblin warlord who says he is a rich one? He is the warlord because the monster is the stongest or craftiest. You also assume they treasure the same things the character does? Most goblins could not tell the difference between diamond and cubic zirconia or the difference between gold and pyrite (fool's gold). Minatours are dumb as posts and would probably accept any shiny object?

What you are saying is the reward must be in line with the risk. If you kill a goblin warlord that has been hoarding pyrite (because the monster and minions are not smart enough to know the difference) that is the risk you take.

Why would a acid grub be carrying weapons unless they are made of gold or platinum? The acid would dissolve most metals. Would any expect to find a wooden chest around acid grubs?

What you want to do is eliminate the luck factor. IMHO luck makes the game fun. I never know what might pop up. If I get lucky and open a complicated lock. Yes the re-roller can keep rolling until they get lucky. Let them. It is not hurting you and the way you play.