Female vs male character attributes and skills

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Evnissyen
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Evnissyen »

What's pathetic is people who get angry at other people for having a rational disagreement with a feature that does not appear to have a meaningful point or add anything positive to the gameplay. Perhaps you should relax, Jedi. Nobody's calling anybody sexist, here.

In fact, I might as well ask the same question of you which I posed above: Why is this feature so important to you?
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

Evnissyen wrote:Why is this feature so important to you?
For me, it is about identifying physiological differences between body sizes. Just drop the very idea of "gender" for a moment...

I could have yet one more attribute in the character editor called "Body Size" whereas larger body masses get the Strength bonus and smaller body masses get the Dexterity bonus. I like the idea that players can further shape their character in some way through their choice of body size. However, rather than add yet another stat, tying this to gender make sense because in most cases men are bigger than women. Of course there are exceptions, but with nearly every hominid species over the past 5 million years this has been the rule.

This for me has never been about one gender being superior over another (although I often do play test with a female character because I like the natural AR boost that the increased Dexterity gives me). This is solely about figuring in body size in relation to either muscle mass or reaction/balance, and giving an extra attribute point to reflect these differences.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

I have to add 1 more thing to this....when we had just a male character in Book I, we got lots of complaints. People wanted the option to play a female character. Yet now that we've put females in Book II, the idea that females might play slightly different than males is just as offensive as not having females at all!

So let's sum this up: fans want females in Book II, and it has been suggested that fans want to be able to purchase feminine clothes for their female character, but some fans don't want bonuses based on gender traits because that promotes sexual stereotypes.

If this were really the case, I don't know why more people didn't use a female custom portrait, and a female name, and just pretend their Book I character was female. Was this unsuitable because the character sprite in-game had short hair and a "manly-looking" body?? Nowhere in the text is the player identified as a "man", so this is possible.

What I get from this is you want your female to look female but not be female. That sounds sexist. :wink:
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Saxon1974 »

BasiliskWrangler wrote:I have to add 1 more thing to this....when we had just a male character in Book I, we got lots of complaints. People wanted the option to play a female character. Yet now that we've put females in Book II, the idea that females might play slightly different than males is just as offensive as not having females at all!

So let's sum this up: fans want females in Book II, and it has been suggested that fans want to be able to purchase feminine clothes for their female character, but some fans don't want bonuses based on gender traits because that promotes sexual stereotypes.

If this were really the case, I don't know why more people didn't use a female custom portrait, and a female name, and just pretend their Book I character was female. Was this unsuitable because the character sprite in-game had short hair and a "manly-looking" body?? Nowhere in the text is the player identified as a "man", so this is possible.

What I get from this is you want your female to look female but not be female. That sounds sexist. :wink:
Funny post Thomas. I can understand your problem, you just can't make everyone happy and this is a sensitive subject isn't it? :)

For my 2 cents, Men and Women are different on average so I think your idea of a strength + 1 to a male and a + 1 dexterity for a female sounds pretty good.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by realmzmaster »

jinnes wrote:And realmzmaster, the reason to handle genders and races differently in this context is simple. The genders are the ones from the real world and therefore have political implications. The races are fantasy races and don't. As a thought experiment, imagine replacing "elf" and "troll" with "african-american" and "caucasian." How would you then feel about race-based stat differences? Who is stronger? Who is smarter?
I would feel the same way! Why? Because physiological differences do exist between the different "races". Notice what I said here physiological differences. Smarter is not a physiological difference! Unless you are stating that intelligence is based on a physiological difference! Then we can get into the nature vs nurture agrument! Strength is a physiological difference. Endurance is a physiological difference. Example, the dominance of long distance running by the Ethopians and Kenyans (male or female!). Think I am wrong, check the Summer Olympics 2008 results in all the long distance running catogories. To say there is no difference is to ignore the obvious. If the game gave bonuses using real races I would expect the Keyans to have pluses in stamina.

I have no problem with it because that is reality. There are differences between male and female. Notice there are different physical requirements for male and female firefighters, army, paramedics and police. Why does that difference exist? In the army and coast guard men are not allowed to enlist if under 60 inches. Women are allowed to enlist starting at 58 inches. Male and female firefighters have different weight carrying requirements. So differences exist.

Yes the designer has to explain why the differences exist, but I think they would be on solid physiological footing.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Asgard The Elder »

Dragonlady wrote:Okay, I can see the st/dex male/female decision. After all most women can multitask at the same time and learn it from an early age. Taking care of rugrats, cooking dinner, answering the phone and setting the table all at the same time takes a lot of dexterity! :lol:
Not always true.. :lol: ..If you ever met my better half you would know that multitasking is not in her skill set. Dexterity and Concentration are her strong suites. Even though she can't walk and chew gum at the same time she can manipulate small diverse items quickly and accurately. I beleive that with the exception of the extreme ends of the spectrum that it really does not matter which sex you are - you develop thoes skills you learn or were born with to the degree you need to survive. Mother nature is unforgiving.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Jude »

Well, I hate to write this, but this thread has taken away the joy of anticipating the new game. It's gotten ugly, at times, and the attitudes of some of the people have surprised me, although they probably shouldn't have. And as a woman who almost constantly has to put up with unfair discriminatory crap from everything from common respect to equal pay for equal work (and being accused of melodrama when I expect to have fairness), I see no reason to let this ruin any more of my recreation time. I've had my say, and It's not worth it to me to bother any more. It's your creation, BW, game, to do with as you will, as it is for the gamers who purchase it to play it as they like.

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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

Okay everyone- please keep your comments constructive and on topic. Criticizing others opinions does nothing but makes this thread laborious to read.

The last thing that we can afford to do is lose sales- we have a very small user base and each sale is crucial. But, we have come to realize that we cannot please everyone no matter how hard we try, and if we try to make a game that satisfies everyone then ultimately the game itself will suffer. In the grand scheme of the game this gender bonus is practically insignificant and yet scientifically accurate. It is not a penalty; it in no way suggests one gender is superior over another, but rather it celebrates the physical differences of each gender. Finally, it adds depth to the character building experience beyond just getting some new portraits to chose from.

This is the last comment I will make on this because I am just repeating myself now. Please continue to post your opinions on this matter but do refrain from criticizing others. If we can't make positive headway on this, I will have to lock the topic....
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Evnissyen »

Okay...

I've been reading over some of the thread, and I suppose I'll take these issues piece by piece.

First: BW:
Obviously, it's your work, so I urge you to do what you want. I think that I understand what you want, and I also think I understand Jedi's apparent annoyance/frustration. I'll get to that in a moment. First: I've only tried to make the point that assorting gender-specific "bonuses" (and thus "penalties" by complement, since you must choose one or the other) is restrictive and dictatorial when the bonus is significant, and pointless when the bonus is insignificant. My own perspective has nothing to do with the issue of gender-bias (although I obviously understand it and, were I a game developer, would be concerned about it) but rather everything to do with gameplay... the freedom of the player to choose. That's all. I certainly do not have any desire to restrict your own vision, and I say: do as your vision tells you. (The suggestions & critiques I've made in other threads, I hope, won't be confused with that.) In fact... if your vision is, as I think you've said, to create a set of player types and builds who each would gain specific characteristic bonuses... then go the whole hog.

Second, Jedi:
From reading over the posts, I think that what you're concerned with is, to put it crudely, the outside noise. It's the artist being affected negatively by outside forces. You don't want the artist to be affected to the point that he (in this case he) ends up putting out a product that's inferior to that degree. While I fully understand that (if it is actually the case): It could've been expressed calmly and rationally; but your response, was rude and angry. It's that rudeness and apparent anger (which suggested a personal interest: answer to question#2) which is what I (not Jude) was referring to. You accused people here who disagreed with the stat variations as being "not clever" and "melodramatic" and you described their concerns and thoughts as being "pathetic" and having "no place on the internet". You belittled their arguments as "making excuses" and told them that they should be "ashamed of themselves". It doesn't matter whether or not your remarks were inclusive of me: This is inappropriate behavior, I think. I also think it also outlines the sort of social divide and misunderstanding which prompts reactions like Jude's. She's completely in her right to express how she feels and it's out of line for you to criticize or belittle her for it.

So, while you accuse Jude of avoiding your questions which evidently were aimed at me: I've now answered your questions.

Finally, everyone else:
Most people here seem to be touting the viva la différence thing (specifically, all the guys), which is all well and fine for "real life" which does not record you and distribute you to thousands and thousands of other people and attempt to apply you to them. Personally I think that appreciation for la différence is an appreciation best left for "real life", and best scrutinized more severely with products that set these notions down with a risky degree of certainty.

Jude and Jinnis can both correct me if I'm wrong, but I really don't think that their concerns are truly about +1dex/+0str vs. +1str/+0dex. I really think it's about the very notion of separation. An inconsequential 1 pt. brings up the question of why this feature is here: It can only be symbolism, in this case. The 2 pt. increase that Jedi suggests brings up the question Why is this game forcing gender-based traits upon me? And neither has to do with whether or not human beings, in real life, are different. Everyone knows we are, and we all obviously appreciate the differences. The point is: Does anyone really want to codify any of these differences in ways whose interpretations and consequences we really might not desire?

I hope that this covers everything.

I'll buy the game, if I like it... as I'm sure everyone else posting on this thread will.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Jinx »

BasiliskWrangler wrote:
Evnissyen wrote:Why is this feature so important to you?
For me, it is about identifying physiological differences between body sizes. Just drop the very idea of "gender" for a moment...

I could have yet one more attribute in the character editor called "Body Size" whereas larger body masses get the Strength bonus and smaller body masses get the Dexterity bonus. I like the idea that players can further shape their character in some way through their choice of body size. However, rather than add yet another stat, tying this to gender make sense because in most cases men are bigger than women. Of course there are exceptions, but with nearly every hominid species over the past 5 million years this has been the rule.

This for me has never been about one gender being superior over another (although I often do play test with a female character because I like the natural AR boost that the increased Dexterity gives me). This is solely about figuring in body size in relation to either muscle mass or reaction/balance, and giving an extra attribute point to reflect these differences.
/agree
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by AnthonyK »

BasiliskWrangler wrote: The truth is you can still easily have a muscle-bound female or a dexterous male from the start of the game by choosing a good roll and allotting your extra attribute points accordingly, just like in Book I. Remember this is a BONUS, not a PENALTY....which means gender selection has no negative effects on your character design.
I've been reading this thread for a bit, laughing, so being I FINALLY did make an account and started posting, I just wanted to point this out as well which I saw the very first time I read it. It's a bonus, not a penalty. Any player can most definitely adjust their stats around this to make up for ONE point.

I'm going to expand a little, and I hope it's doesn't turn into a rant, nor taken as one.

Strength isn't directly proportional to mass, and dexterity isn't proportional to speed as it says below in the quote I pulled from the manual.
Eschalon: Book I Players Manual wrote:• Strength •

Strength is a measure of a character's physical power; their ability to lift and carry weight as well
as the maximum force they can deliver when attacking. Nearly all of your Character's physical
abilities are augmented by Strength in some way, including Toxin Resistance.

• Dexterity •

Dexterity is a measure of steadiness, accuracy, hand-eye coordination, balance, and grace in
physical activity. Dexterity is critical in your Character's ToHit rating and their base Armor Rating.
I've met many VERY strong men and women that aren't bulky. Are we talking grip strength or extremity strength? What? It's overall. When it comes down to it muscle strength and muscle mass are actually two separate entities. Most strength training is focused on building mass, which in turn will increase strength. Nice little side effect actually. Without getting too technical, I'll leave it at this though, muscle growth does not have to equal muscle mass. Even the manual says it's physical power. It takes into account their ability to lift, carry, and force when attacking. All take in different factors than just physical strength and muscle mass. Take many martial artists. most aren't bulky at all, but the force they can deliver i n an attack of some sort is arguably, quite insane.

Now to dexterity. Someone who is very dexterous isn't necessarily someone who can run a 4 min mile. The description in the manual states it rather nicely.

Anyhoo.. I'll go back to my lurking and enjoying reading your insights. Have a great day!
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Jinx »

BasiliskWrangler wrote:I have to add 1 more thing to this....when we had just a male character in Book I, we got lots of complaints. People wanted the option to play a female character. Yet now that we've put females in Book II, the idea that females might play slightly different than males is just as offensive as not having females at all!

So let's sum this up: fans want females in Book II, and it has been suggested that fans want to be able to purchase feminine clothes for their female character, but some fans don't want bonuses based on gender traits because that promotes sexual stereotypes.

If this were really the case, I don't know why more people didn't use a female custom portrait, and a female name, and just pretend their Book I character was female. Was this unsuitable because the character sprite in-game had short hair and a "manly-looking" body?? Nowhere in the text is the player identified as a "man", so this is possible.

What I get from this is you want your female to look female but not be female. That sounds sexist. :wink:
Thus we come to our final final conclusion: You can't make everyone happy, and unfortunately, some people will never be happy.

You are really putting yourself out there when you create something and share it with the world, and many people (especially trolls) relish in opportunities to say (paraphrased) "EPIC FAIL" or something of that nature. Your only defense is to either /ignore or live under a bridge and to fight troll fire with troll fire (ie. retorts like crymorenoob, qft, etc). The choice is yours and I'm always glad to see you choose the high road.

The phrase "The internet is serious business" comes to mind when I read the complaining about the stat bonus. In other words, omg stop whining.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by realmzmaster »

I am reminded of the quote , "If you are pleasing everyone, you are probably doing something wrong!" No game is going to please everyone. The only hope the designer has is that his/her creation will please most of the intended audience and the game makes a profit.

I find it interesting that some people want no difference between the genders except for the protrait and name. Why not just have a stock amorphous character?
Because if there is no differnce between the genders, then as William James said "A difference that makes no difference is no difference!"
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Evnissyen »

I'm afraid you're all missing the point. Please re-read all the posts that argue against any two-character gender-specific system of applying statistics.

There are two essential types that I have discerned. Mine is the argument that deals with game-play alone (and in my last post, which I had hoped would end the debate, I attempted to clarify what appeared to be the concerns of others such as Jinnis and Jude)....

The second type is the one that deals with separation. As any American -- which I believe all three of you are unless you are merely visiting San Diego, Chicago and Pennsylvania from another nation -- who has lived through this very lengthy primary season and continues to watch the issue exploited in the national campaign through the agent of Sarah Palin... you should have observed that the issue of separation, in at least the case of gender and race, has been reaching for a near-critical stage of sensitivity.

In fact, this issue of separation, in this nation, extends far beyond gender, and even far beyond race. Our entire culture is based on obsessive separation and categorization. I, as a writer, cannot generate a single work of art that others will not attempt to categorize. Of course, I freely accept the categorizations, because I have no choice. But these obsessive categorizations are too often an attempt to marginalize groups of people whom certain majorities in certain situations do not find desirable.

Anyhow, to the point: I am not saying "EPIC FAIL". Others are not saying "EPIC FAIL". We are saying that this is an issue that must be considered with some delicacy, especially considering the current socio-political climate. Simply from a business standpoint, I think this is something that cannot simply be disregarded. If we like the game we will buy it. There has been no statement here suggesting an "EPIC FAIL".

Although, according to my experience with human behavior, I do not expect it: I sincerely wish this to be a wake-up call to anyone who does not understand (or want to face) the issues. I wish that you would open up your minds and try to understand: These issues are real. They are not fabrications or excuses or shields or reflections of hysteria, they cannot be effectively dismissed with disdainful references to "political correctness" (which, as I said in my first post in this thread, is too often not properly understood in its necessary context).

So . . . please: Anyone else who feels that they are on the brink of posting another statement that disregards the modern cultural situations: please think seriously before you do so.
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Re: Female vs male character attributes and skills

Post by Jinx »

Great quote about game design. BasaliskWrangler, I think you can probably appreciate this. It's from Jay Wilson, lead designer on Diablo 3, in regards to people that are already prepared to go into a rage when the classes are announced:

All the barbarian players are delighted and all the necromancers hate us. I understand, I don't begrudge them that. I would hate me too! But what I would say is that when we announce the next class, which is quite similar to a previous class, then all those players will hate us too. You can't make everybody happy, but I think when the game finally come out players will find there's a good class for them, one they will love as much as the ones that came before. And if they don't, I absolutely promise that in the expansions we'll consider bringing back old classes.


The only difference is that even after he says that you can't make everyone happy, it sounds like he still thinks he could with expansions. You can't, Jay :)

Original article from Kotaku:

http://kotaku.com/5050956/you-will-so-h ... -iii-class
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