Major skill and minor skill

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kayer828
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Major skill and minor skill

Post by kayer828 »

I don't think it's possible to make all the skill balance as there are many non-fighting related skill like cartography, Lore, Disarm, Mercantile.....etc. Those skill can't help you kill a strong mob, however, the game will not be so funny without those skill.

I will suggest that divide the skills to Major and minor, or fighting and non-fighting skill something like that. For example, u gain 3 major skill point and 1 minor skill point for each level. Or you can only gain minor skill point from doing quest or from specific chest.....So ppl can place their skill point to some skill that not very useful.
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by Rune_74 »

I suggested in the past to have teir skills. Such as if you get to a certain level in a skill other skill paths become available...and if you have a couple skills as prerequisites for other skills it makes the character deeper. I'm not sure if thats the route that basilisk has taken but we will see soon I assume.
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by IJBall »

kayer828 wrote:I will suggest that divide the skills to Major and minor, or fighting and non-fighting skill something like that. For example, u gain 3 major skill point and 1 minor skill point for each level. Or you can only gain minor skill point from doing quest or from specific chest.....So ppl can place their skill point to some skill that not very useful.
I also like this idea.

There are too many times when building a character means pouring all 3 Skill level points into Armor or Weapons, even though raising, say, Mercantile or Hide in Shadows would be really helpful too.

So every time a character goes up a level, if you could put 2-3 points into Weapons or Armor, and another 1-2 points into a non-armor/weapons Skill like Mercantile, Pick Locks, Hide in Shadows or Meditation, I think this would be an improvement over the current set-up in Book I.
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by realmzmaster »

How would you decide what is a major and minor skill? It would differ between classes. Lockpicking would be a minor skill for a fighter, but a major skill for a rogue. So BW and clan would have to adjust each class and decide what would be major and minor skills. Also to avoid to much complexity the number of major and minor skills would have to be kept to a managable level.

A pool of skills could be created and during character creation after selecting the class you would be allowed to demote or promote a skill to major or minor level and/or select from the skill pool. At level increase the character would get 4 points to distribute, but as the number of points increase in one skill less and less points can be spent on that skill.

Just a suggestion.
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kayer828
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by kayer828 »

What I meant of major and minor skill, will not be related with their class, but decided by they are combat-related or not.

For example, mercantile, pick lock are not combat related. So even for a rogue, it will be a minor skill(or what other name it should be).

However, it would be nice too if there are different point needed for raising the skill if they are different class. Or there should be limit for some class to learn some skill. For example, a rogue can raise their hide in shadow skill to master, but for magic user, they can only learn the base of it. We don't need to limit how many points they can add to the skill, but for a rogue, they will gain master bonus when the skill raised to a specific skill level but a magic user can't.
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by realmzmaster »

You are saying lockpicking is a minor skill because it is not combat related. Lockpicking, hide in the shadows and stealth for a thief, assassin or rogue would be considered major skills. Otherwise you are going to be one sucky thief, assassin or rogue. Also shoudn't it cost more points to increase in a skill once a certain level is reached or as a skill is increased less benefit is seen.

I do not know if Book II will allow for dual class, but I assume that if a character is dual class say magic user/thief that it could rise to expert or master level in either or both classes.

If you are going to define major or minor skills based on combat relatedness I would have to differ.
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kayer828
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by kayer828 »

Maybe we are stuck by the name of "major" and "minor". As I thought the last aim of the game is to "kill", so I define all the skill related to skill to major. But obvious it's not accptable reason for all players.

The reason for me want to divide them into two type is to let ppl can spend point on them but will not feel it will be a waste. For example, you cannot create the strongest character with high level pick lock skill.....so ppl prefer to raise their fighting skill but when they see a chest, keep save and load to open it safety, it's not very healthy for the game.

So I want them to be divided whatever what the skill type called.
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by Yeliu »

I agree with realmzmaster, while I think the idea of major and minor skills is an interesting one, it should be according to class, not fighting/non-fighting.
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

I think Realmzmaster's variation would be better, dividing them by "Class" and "Non-Class" skills, so you gain a certain number of points per level for class skills and a lesser number for non-class or general (usable on either class or non-class related, depending on the choice of the player). So, for a rogue, short bladed weapons, pick locks, hide in shadows, move silently, and perhaps thrown weapons are all class skills, but for a fighter, only the combat and armor skills are class skills.

That would add some depth to the decision making throughout the process of character creation and development. However, I'm just as happy with skills as they are, and I really never found it a problem to generalize.

Also, I get the feeling that Kayer may not be a native English speaker, so some of the difficulty here may be due to communication troubles rather than a difference in meaning.
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kayer828
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by kayer828 »

You are right, Kreador Freeaxe:P

To present my idea in english is quite a problem>.<

But I would like to ask.....have you raise your pick lock skill in book 1?:P
And the merchantile? Lore?

My idea is just to solve the problem which ppl are not willing to waste their skill point on those skill as they are not must and don't help they kill enemy. But those skill are funny in the game. (The first charater I created in Book 1 is a rogue starting with high pick lock, spot hidden, skulldXXX <forgot how to spell>, but I found this charater is just suck.....)About the major class and sub class skill maybe another problem.
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

In fact, if you wander the boards a bit, you'll find I'm one of the few people who doesn't feel that pick locks is a total waste. :) My preferred character build for this game is a jack-of-all-trades Ranger/Rogue. I love hide in shadows, spot hidden, pick locks. I generally try to get my mercantile up around 10. I also like my bow, and my axe. I've never put a point in heavy armor except by using the training book.

Then, I don't think that the only object of the game is to kill stuff (though I have done the Only One Survives ending, wiping out all other life in the game).
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by CrazyBernie »

I also would prefer class based skill favoring, if anything. Personally I'm usually hard pressed to consider any combat skill a "major" one. I like to hide in the darkness and relieve people of their belongings without them being the wiser. Er, I mean in game, of course. :mrgreen: I spend more time on RPG's trying to figure out what isn't bolted down than killing things or progressing the story.

This is why in Book I you recieved a free skill based on your class rather than having to front the 3 skill points. Perhaps if you recieved more than one skill? Such as a Warrior with Swords, Shields and Heavy Armor, or a Rogue with Short Weapons, Picklock, and Stealth, or a Ranger with Bows, Light Armor, and Survival? Having just one skill just isn't "Class" enough for me... :roll:

How about a Secret Character Class with the skills Chainsaw, Shotguns, and Green Armor? We'll call him the DooMed Space Marine. 8)
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by krisklef »

Not to come across as a wet blanket, but I think this idea of Major and Minor skills would be way more trouble than it's worth. If the skill point awards for leveling up were the same for Major and Minor skills, then it's a simple matter of forcing each character to divide his skill point allotment between some (possibly arbitrary) groups. "You get 6 points, but can't put them all in your weapon, some have to go to Merc or Lore, or whatever." The only thing this would help do is promote skills that get ignored for more favorable or tasty choices. The player already has the choice to adopt skills or not, and must plan ahead, considering the three measly points he is given each level (not endorsing an increase, I enjoy the tension that creates!)

And I sure wouldn't want to be the person who has to go through 5 (or more?) classes and divide the skills in such a way that each class has an equal # of Maj & Min, while keeping the verisimilitude, AND making sure that some skills are not always minors.

The problem of useless or less-meaningful skills must be addressed with each skill, I think; and everyone is going to ignore one skill or another. The only problem is if EVERYONE ignores a skill, there is no reason for it to be there.

And for the record, my last two characters had significant investment in Merc. OTOH: Lore, Dodge, Skullduggery, Move Silently, these have never seemed worthwhile to me.
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

I've been following this thread and think there are a lot of good ideas here. We'll certainly investigate some of them.

For what it's worth, the Skill system in Book II is getting overhauled from top to bottom. Before we even think about changing the fundamental structure of the skill system, we need to address skills that are over or under powered, deemed useless, broken or exploitable.

Skills like Lore, Skulduggery, Pick Locks, Spot Hidden, and Move Silently are only as valuable as the game allows them to be. Let's take Skulduggery and Spot Hidden for a moment: if traps are more plentiful and more dangerous, and the game rules are set to prohibit reloading, and you are working towards getting an end-game bonus based on your play style, well, THEN these Skills take on a whole new level of importance. You depend upon them.

One area of Book I that we've identified as needing attention is that the game does not always reward the player who builds a character along specific Class guidelines. With Book II we are making a world where pure-class characters such as Rogues, Warriors, Mages have a place in. Sure, jack-of-all-trade characters can still be fun and successful characters too, but there needs to be rewards for the dedicated player who builds textbook Class characters. This starts with the skills themselves- making them more functional and useful.
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Re: Major skill and minor skill

Post by CrazyBernie »

Well obviously if a skill has no use it shouldn't be there. Can't really disagree with that. :o But then, every RPG I've ever played has always had a skill or three I've never used... so who am I to say someone else might not find it/them handy??

That being said, and if all skills have their purpose in a game, then it's all about how YOU want to play the game.

Ever play Morrowind?? You can pick a certain number of skills to be promoted to Major Skills. These skills are easier to increase over the rest. To put into comparison, assume Major skills required 1 point to increase by 1 point, vs. Minor skills which would require 2 points to increase by 1 point. Sure, you might ask "why would I bother increasing any of the Minor skills?" That's why you could only pick a select few to be Major. It also forces you to really make that decision about what type of character you want to play... which I think increases your connection with your character on a more personal level... which in turn makes it more of a role playing game. If you want to make a character that's good at absolutely everything, what's the point of a character class? We might as well get rid of the classes and just go with "Adventurer," or "Hero."

Obviously the the other option is to go class based as I mentioned in my previous post... a fighter can certainly learn magic, but he's going to be better at increasing his fighting skills. A master swordsman is also probably going find it easier to learn how to use an axe than stalk his prey in the wild with a bow...

But either option if made available would be fine by me... ^_^

Edit: Er.. I typed too slow >.<
Last edited by CrazyBernie on October 13th, 2008, 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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