* BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Here's where all things related to Book II are being discussed!
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Yeliu
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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by Yeliu » October 10th, 2008, 1:11 am

BW, I think having Power, Finesse and Parry are brilliant ideas. :D

I personally favor ToHit over Damage, and really enjoyed getting my ToHit up into the 30s and lower 40s with the Assassin rings, blessed, &c. It was a lot cooler, imho, to hit your guy >90% of the time with a little less damage than only 60% with a few extra points. XD So, I'll probably be using Finesse a lot, I love the idea :)

Yay Charm Cloud! That sounds really neat, I can't wait to try it.

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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by Necromis » October 10th, 2008, 7:34 am

actually the Parry with ranged weapons could be more of a *dodge* than a parry. Say you are trading ranged shots with goblin archers or slimes. Instead of worrying about shooting you are zigging and zagging, tumbling or whatever to avoid being hit. so it is still a fair option.
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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by IJBall » October 10th, 2008, 8:58 am

In regards to the Charm Cloud potion, I really hope that its like the Incinerator Fuel - that it's a one-time find, that probably only has a use in one particular circumstance.

Because, otherwise, Charm Cloud potion sounds like it's too powerful a weapon that could adversely affect gameplay.

Just IMHO. YMMV.

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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by Unclever title » October 10th, 2008, 10:14 am

IJBall wrote:In regards to the Charm Cloud potion, I really hope that its like the Incinerator Fuel - that it's a one-time find, that probably only has a use in one particular circumstance.

Because, otherwise, Charm Cloud potion sounds like it's too powerful a weapon that could adversely affect gameplay.

Just IMHO. YMMV.
Or it could be like the predator sight potion as in unable for the player to make in Alchemy. And additionally it could be very expensive. Also there were some enemies in Book I that couldn't be charmed if I remember correctly. So it wouldn't be that bad...

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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by Samurai Drakon » October 10th, 2008, 10:42 am

I like the sound of that charm cloud. But there will be charm spell too right, though you would need to upgrade to get the cloud effect.

As for the combat modes POWER and FINESSE, I noticed you didn't mention critical hits. With power, more damage but less chance of critical and the opposite with finesse. Right?
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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by BasiliskWrangler » October 10th, 2008, 11:44 am

@IJBall: It is not a specialty item; you can make this potion. But unlike the spell Charm, this is a potion: a chemical-based effect which is save vs Toxins, not save vs Magick like the spell. So not only is it easier for creatures to save against, but the Charming effects are of a shorter duration; only 6-10 rounds, just long enough for the cloud to dissipate. This potion will aid you, but it won't win battles for you.

@Samurai Drakon: There is a Charm Spell just like in Book I (works on a single creature), but not a Charm Cloud spell. Why? Well, it makes more sense that this is a chemical based potion-only effect. Also, I like the fact that Alchemy has some "exclusives", just as not every magickal spell will have a potion version.
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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by El'Lorien » October 10th, 2008, 4:40 pm

Any possibility of hitting multiple enemies with melee weapons?

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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by The Noid » October 11th, 2008, 7:24 am

I like the different combat focus settings :)
You probably shouldn't go for a fixed 20%, but make it depend on the weapon. A huge axe isn't really suitable for carefully aimed blows, and a sleek dagger isn't very suitable for going berserk. Especially if the critical chance goes up with the finesse setting, that could mean that a rogue with a dagger on an unsuspecting enemy has a close to 100% crit chance.
BasiliskWrangler wrote:Also, given the unique turn-based nature of the engine, we cannot just drop in some new point-based system and expect it to work. The improved combat system must look and feel like Eschalon...
Does that mean we will still be able to out-run raptors? I still think one of the most important issues is the speed thing. It doesn't need "some new point-based system" to work, it could be as simple as making a simple skip-turn-table.
creatures with speed < 5 skip 5 of every 6 turns (2,3,4,5,6)
creatures with 5 <= speed < 10 skip 4 of every 6 turns (2, 3, 5, 6)
creatures with 10 <= speed < 15 skip 3 of every 6 turns (2, 4, 6)
creatures with 15 <= speed < 20 skip 2 of every 6 turns (3, 6)
creatures with 20 <= speed < 25 skip 1 of every 6 turns (6)
creatures with 25 <= speed skip no turns.

You could make it a table of 12 turns for finer ajustment, and make the scale non-linear.

That way a nimble wasp could fly circles around that slow, heavy-armoured, battleaxe wielding juggernaut.

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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by krisklef » October 11th, 2008, 8:32 am

I'm in favor of an act like switching weapons/equipment or drinking a potion carrying NO defensive bonus and prohibiting any of the proposed attack modes. Essentially, doing these things in combat would be like skipping a round, allowing active opponents a free hit at full potential.

Parry is a great idea, and even though I imagine it being used much less frequently, the option is rich with tactical possibilities. I would suggest, though, that perhaps adding the weapon skill to the Armor Class point-for-point is a bit much for a defensive bonus. Parry might apply equally well to enemy missile attacks, with perhaps Dodge or Dexterity being used for the defensive bonus instead?

Great ideas for enriching the game experience!
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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by krisklef » October 11th, 2008, 9:56 am

More thinking about this development:

Might it be worth making these skills discovery/purchase events, like a book or lesson with an expert NPC (small fee, of course)? Not leveled like the other skills, but perhaps three tiers: none=normal attack only, basic level= 20% trade-offs, AC+x for Parry, advanced level= 40% trade offs, AC+2x for Parry (or more!)

I would enjoy an option to really manipulate battle with more than a 20% adjustment; thus my 9th level character whose getting a good AC might accept the 40% penalty to gain -smacking!!- potential.

Regarding Parry:

I don't want to go off topic in this thread, and I don't know what steps are being taken to address Hide-in-Shadows, but I think nerfing that skill a bit will make Parry a more important skill.

Things like: HiS decreases dramatically with proximity (assuming the character is not silent); delay before a spotted character can fade away again; ability for certain creatures to detect hidden characters by smell, sound, or spiritual sixth-sense; melee successful hit -automatically- reveals character, at least to the victim; inability to hide again if an aware enemy is within a certain number of squares (two?), modified by terrain, perhaps.

Separate topic, I know, but the Parry skill looks better and better the more trouble I have fading away.
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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by Kreador Freeaxe » October 11th, 2008, 4:20 pm

krisklef wrote:Regarding Parry:

I don't want to go off topic in this thread, and I don't know what steps are being taken to address Hide-in-Shadows, but I think nerfing that skill a bit will make Parry a more important skill.

Things like: HiS decreases dramatically with proximity (assuming the character is not silent); delay before a spotted character can fade away again; ability for certain creatures to detect hidden characters by smell, sound, or spiritual sixth-sense; melee successful hit -automatically- reveals character, at least to the victim; inability to hide again if an aware enemy is within a certain number of squares (two?), modified by terrain, perhaps.
I'm pretty sure (based on a careful reading of the first monster) that some creatures will see right through your hide in shadows in the new game. :)

I like the way BW has these new options set right now, as they're simple but interesting. Too much complexity in them will make it more of a pain to use. I would note, however, that using the attack settings should also alter the chance of your weapon being damaged in the attempt. All out strength may well cause you to snap the handle of your battle axe in two, or shatter your dagger against that goblin's plate armor, where as a precise shot makes such an event considerably less likely.
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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by CrazyBernie » October 11th, 2008, 6:16 pm

I don't disagree with the Parry/Finesse/Power option, I think it would be a great addition to the combat strategy.... I just wonder if it should be completely static or not. I see most people going with Finesse due to the hit chance being more attractive than the less of a chance to hit. I also think it should be somewhat affected by the weapon of choice... I don't see a dagger doing 20% more damage, or a huge wieldy axe getting a 20% greater chance to hit. I do understand the desire to keep it static however; too many factors = a programming nightmare. Perhaps leaving it static for Book II and seeing how well it works would be the best option.

I suppose it would be best as well to keep in mind that this is a game set in a fantasy world and you play the part of a hero... an extraordinary person. It shouldn't be too terribly difficult to imagine someone with far above average skills quaffing a potion while parrying an attack. :mrgreen: I can see Conan or Robin Hood performing such a feat with ease.

What about two weapon wielding??? Is there going to be an option? That way with parry mode you could just parry with one weapon and still have the ability to attack with the other; albeit at a lower damage rate...

Are there going to be similar options for spell casters? Like Magnify to increase the damage/healing/area of effect with a increased chance of failure, or Focus to increase spell penetration(or decrease spell resistance) while decreasing damage? I don't generally roll a spell caster, but I'd hate to deprive them of an option while giving combat-types fancy-shmancy bells and whistles. 8)

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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by Samurai Drakon » October 12th, 2008, 1:42 am

Now I'm not BW, but I'd expect that all these combat modes are for a skilled combat character only. Also, as others might of mentioned, different weapons present different specialties: a dagger has poor power, fair parry and high finesse, a normal one-handed sword presents a balanced option and a huge waraxe would provide huge power, though poor parry due to it weight and of course no finesse.

As for an ideal parrying weapon sacrifying power and finesse I'd recon a staff would do it (I've seen it in action and it's perfect for blocking/stopping and opponent, being light and perfectly balanced).

Then there's the shield, and -possibly- dual-handling. Now I'm ready to believe that one could quaff a potion in ANY situation, as long as you have free hand! Not that you'd have to unequip your shield everytime (it's already annoying enough when you need to use a torch goddamnit) but its defensive bonus should be reduced. If you're very skilled with a shield though that penalty is reduced.

to CrazyBernie : spellcasters already have fancy bells and whistles. Spiderweb software noticed the repetitive aspect of melee and so decided to add 'combat spells' in their later Avernum games. Wonderful! :D
My swords may be sharp, but so are my wits. I will first draw them and many think I never draw my blades; they are mistaken. It is because none have ever seen them ALIVE... because of my firey breath of course -The legendary Dragon Samurai

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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by Thief » October 12th, 2008, 4:38 am

Heya, new to these forums. Just completed the game for the first time. Any guesses as to what class I played? :P

Anyway, I really like this idea but I'm not a fan of making it possible to quaff a potion or cast a healing spell while parrying without there being at least some increase to your foe's chances of scoring a hit/critical. It currently seems to operate this way which forces you to develop more complex battle strategies.

I also think there are some interesting possibilities here if parry can take into consideration your dodge skill. Obviously the check would first be for parry, and then dodge. That way you're getting two chances to avoid an attack (assuming you have dodge), with a very small chance of getting a riposte if dodge activates. I know I'm treating parry like a regular skill when you're talking about implementing it as a kind of combat stance everyone has access to (dependent on weapon), but I think you could still treat it like a skill in determining the avoidance/blocking of a blow or simply reducing damage received.

I also think certain weapons should be better at parrying than others. While a two handed club might be very damaging, it's not a very defensive weapon or suited for parrying. However, in skilled hands a quarterstaff is very balanced in terms of its ability for offense and defense. Maybe if you're wielding a two handed club your parry ability might be half that of your weapon skill where as a sword or staff might utilize all of your skill. Trying to parry with a bow should be an act of desperation, it might save your life, but it would be neat if there was a good chance a successful parry will destroy the bow.

Will there be dual wielding in Book II? I can foresee a lot of fun experimenting for players here. Just musing.

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Re: * BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

Post by RezoApio » October 12th, 2008, 5:31 am

Looks a nice addition to the game.
Personnally I like the idea of quaffing a potion while using a parry mode. You can imagine to have a few belt pouch for 2 or 3 potions that could be used that way.
Sure with a shield and sword in hands, you may find it difficult to get to your belt pouch, but we are speaking of heroes no ;-)
Would it be hard to make the %modifier change based on the type of weapon ? That would add a nice touch to the system.
I also like the idea to have the system with an equivalent for magic users.

There is another point that have been raised and that is important is how to simulate speed difference in a turn-based system. Maybe the idea developped in the thread about some skip turns is the way to go ?

And I am impatient to use that Charm Cloud potion ;-) (Any info about new stuff for Alchemist ?)
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