* BOOK II COMBAT OPTIONS *

[BasiliskWrangler]

Okay, now's the time when we ask you, the fans, to give your opinions on a design idea of ours. While most people feel combat is fine in Eschalon, many others have lamented that it is too simplistic. So, we've been looking into ways to add more strategic depth to combat without changing the fundamental feel of the Eschalon series. Also, given the unique turn-based nature of the engine, we cannot just drop in some new point-based system and expect it to work. The improved combat system must look and feel like Eschalon...

Right now we have a new system in place which I feel adds a lot to the depth of the combat model, yet can be mostly transparent to those who just like to keep a simpler combat model. The new system works like this:

When the game starts, the combat mode is set for Normal, which means combat functions just like Book I. You could leave it in this mode the whole game if you want.

For people looking to gain an edge in combat, there are three other settings: Power lets you attack with much more force, gaining +20% damage but losing -20% ToHit in the process. This would work well against high Hit-Point targets with a lower armor class.

The next setting would be Finesse, which does just the opposite of Power: Finesse implies you are carefully choosing the strike locations on your target and so you gain +20% ToHit, but your damage suffers a -20% penalty. This is good against highly armored targets where you need to penetrate their defense and whittle their HP down slowly.

The final setting would be Parry and is solely a defensive mode. When you are in Parry mode you are completely defending yourself and so you cannot attack. Every Skill Point you have in the weapon you are holding is applied to your Armor Rating, making you much harder to hit. This is primarily for escaping combat, but I have used it in one case where I was almost dead and so was my enemy who was poisoned, and so I used Parry Mode to defend myself for 6 rounds until he succumbed to the toxins. Without Parry I would have most likely died before he would have. Also, we are thinking of allowing simple actions (such as quaffing a potion) to be done under Parry mode.

These combat modes can be switched at any time and does not take a round to do so. During the course of combat you can literally switch to a new combat mode every round if you wish. So as you can see, this does in fact add some new depth to the combat model but yet can be ignored by anyone who doesn't want to change the way they handled combat in Book I. Thoughts?

[IJBall]

FWIW, I like the sound of this.

Novice players either won't know it's there, or won't know how to use it, and so will use the Normal setting by default, getting the same experience as Book I.

Meanwhile, those of us who hate going up against those mercenaries now will have other options like Parry, to reduce their propensity to hit, say, our mid-level characters.

So, from my vantage point, this sounds good. As long as it's not too complicated to implement while playing, it sounds like a good addition.

[Unclever title]

I love the idea but I do notice one problem right off the bat similar to the torch issue in Book I.
In that if you have quick enough hands you could potentially attack then switch to parry immediately after attacking and thus have an immediate defense bonus. (Assuming the switch is similar to lighting/dousing a torch)

Admittedly this is a whole lot more reasonable than lighting and dousing a torch multiple times per round, and is even possible in the rhythm of a battle in reality so it's a potential exploitability but it is a far more reasonable one. However it would remove some of the strategy and I doubt that this would be the intended situation.

Of course you may very well have designed it that during the enemy's turn you can't change your current combat mode which sounds more like you described.

Potential exploitation issues aside, I love this idea, especially the parry and finesse modes as I got tired of being hit too often and being unable to land decent hits back. Any modifications to the game that either require or encourage more strategy are good decisions in my book. One of the things I loved about Book I was using the environment to my advantage, i.e. powder kegs, portcullises, funneling my opponents, trapping my opponents (via demon oil), etc.

Parry mode could potentially greatly assist in this as well.

Additional skills could be used to assist these modes or even perhaps allow use of them as in cartography was required for the mini map. But even just defaultly placed I love it.

Please excuse my made up words,

[BasiliskWrangler]

Potential exploitation issues aside...

Don't you worry....the first step in the evolution of Book II's engine was to patch all the exploits in Book I. There are still a few "creative advantages" that you can benefit from in Book II, but the blatant exploits (bugs) from Book I have been eliminated.

[Dragonlady]

I like the Parry mode being used to drink a potion. I hated trying to drink a healing potion and getting hit while doing so and not get full benefit, at least for a second or two.

[Necromis]

will there be similar options for missle weapons? Forgoing accuracy for that powerfull bow shot, or just throwing that axe/dart/knife with all your might to do as much damage as you can, be damning how accurate you are on placing the shot.

[Rune_74]

I'm actually againts having the parry ability be able t o be used so you can drink potions....just the thought of your character swinging his sword back in forth in one hand parrying attacks as he fumbles the stopper of a potion seems ludicris.

[Randomizer]

I like the sound of it. It allows fighters to modify playing style to fit the monster. Quick kills on easy to hit ones and taking longer on those that are harder to hit, but upping your chance instead of just reading all those missed hit messages.

Parry would be the biggest help since there are plenty of times where you want to retreat or use an item instead of attacking.

It also makes fighters have more fun than current hack or shoot and with what weapon. Spellcasters always have fun with their greater choice of spells.

[BasiliskWrangler]

will there be similar options for missle weapons? Forgoing accuracy for that powerfull bow shot, or just throwing that axe/dart/knife with all your might to do as much damage as you can, be damning how accurate you are on placing the shot.

Yes, these combat modes work with bows under the same premise: a carefully planned shot to maximize damage, or a carefully planned shot to maximize armor penetration. A thrown weapon, based on strength, would work as you described, i.e. thrown with all your might vs. a carefully placed projectile.

One aspect that would not make a lot of sense is parrying with a bow. Not sure what to do in this situation, but we'll come up with something.

[IJBall]

One aspect that would [not] make a lot of sense is parrying with a bow. Not sure what to do in this situation, but we'll come up with something.

You really don't need Parry with a bow, being a range weapon and all, unless you tried to use it in a sector adjacent to a monster. There, I guess, you could actually "Parry" with the bow itself, but you're ToHit goes way down when using bows with directly adjacent monsters, so most people wouldn't use them in that situation anyway.

I guess that's my long way of saying that Parry should be ineffective for ranged weapons, even against monsters with their own projectiles (e.g. fungal slimes).

So, when using a bow (or thrown weapons, I guess), I feel Parry should simply default back to "Normal", and give no advantage or disadvantage one way or the other.

[Saxon1974]

Based on the nature of the turn based current engine and not being able to add action points, I think these options do add some nice things to combat.

How about adding some type of combat based active skills? Seems like it would be pretty easy with this turn based system.

Maybe something like these;

Disarm - You can choose this option and the next attack would be an attempt to disarm your enemy which would last a round of two. Maybe you could be disarmed as well.

Taunt - Try and get your enemy angry and drop their armor class (similar to Power I guess)

Sweep\Knockdown - Try and knock your enemies legs out and knock them to the ground for a couple rounds of bonus attacks.

Persuade - Maybe this skill could be used to convince an enemy your a friend and then get a special first strike bonus.

Trick move - Throw some dirt in their eye to blind them and lower their armor class

Shield Bash - Disarm and knock an opponent down if succesfull. Maybe this takes more skill points to get.

Im thinking one of these combat active feats\skills could be selected before you take your current turn and they would be carried out upon your next attack sequence or something?

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[Saxon1974]

I'm actually againts having the parry ability be able t o be used so you can drink potions....just the thought of your character swinging his sword back in forth in one hand parrying attacks as he fumbles the stopper of a potion seems ludicris.

I have to agree here.

[Unclever title]

I'm actually againts having the parry ability be able t o be used so you can drink potions....just the thought of your character swinging his sword back in forth in one hand parrying attacks as he fumbles the stopper of a potion seems ludicris.

I have to agree here.

Oh I don't know, I can imagine the character ripping the stopper out with his (or her) teeth and maybe downing the drink as fast as possible. I mean it's about as difficult as downing a potion while trying to dodge an attack. Difficult? Yes, but not impossible, and hardly ludicrous.

I mean it certainly gets ludicrous when fighting multiple enemies. Parrying three or four blows is hard enough. But just one on one it's not too hard to imagine.

But I can respect it not being allowed to be done as it adds to the strategy of battle.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Based on the nature of the turn based current engine and not being able to add action points, I think these options do add some nice things to combat.

How about adding some type of combat based active skills? Seems like it would be pretty easy with this turn based system.

Maybe something like these;

Disarm - You can choose this option and the next attack would be an attempt to disarm your enemy which would last a round of two. Maybe you could be disarmed as well.

Taunt - Try and get your enemy angry and drop their armor class (similar to Power I guess)

Sweep\Knockdown - Try and knock your enemies legs out and knock them to the ground for a couple rounds of bonus attacks.

Persuade - Maybe this skill could be used to convince an enemy your a friend and then get a special first strike bonus.

Trick move - Throw some dirt in their eye to blind them and lower their armor class

Shield Bash - Disarm and knock an opponent down if succesfull. Maybe this takes more skill points to get.

Im thinking one of these combat active feats\skills could be selected before you take your current turn and they would be carried out upon your next attack sequence or something?

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Some of these ideas are being implemented already in various forms, not necessarily as feats or special combat options. The Shield Bash suggestion is being worked in as part of the Shield Skill, being an automatic action at higher skill levels. Variations of disarm (or mame) are being tested now, though this action is not "solid" yet.

You mention persuade, which doesn't work well when a majority of enemies you face are monsters and not intelligent beings. However, this reminded me of one of my favorite new "toys" in Book II: the Charm Cloud. It's a potion flask thrown like a Demon Oil and lands with a burst of pink smoke- any creature hit by the smoke becomes charmed and fights for you. Very funny to see a large group of enemies coming at you and then you whip a Charm Cloud potion into the center of the mob...half of them turn to fight the rest of the group!

[AK_Marty]

I love the sound of the Charm Cloud potion! I would guess its going to be expensive, but really sounds like a handy item to have on hand. Will you still get the experience points when enemies kill each other?