Back to Beta

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function.require
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by function.require »

I'm sure it's very worthwhile, in the respect that you take part in the creative process (as you mentioned). Many (if not most) things that are worthwhile are also tedious at times. I've never developed games but in the programming I have done, no amount of hair pulling while trying to write the program can overcome the joy of having a working program when you are finished.

I think what I was trying to get at is, if your primary motivation for wanting to be a beta tester is to 'try out' the game before it is released, then you are bound to be disappointed when it turns into a lot of work.

My opinions are my own and I simply wanted to add to the discussion rather than convince others of my opinion. Sorry if it was taken that way.
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BasiliskWrangler
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

function.require wrote:I think what I was trying to get at is, if your primary motivation for wanting to be a beta tester is to 'try out' the game before it is released, then you are bound to be disappointed when it turns into a lot of work.
Very well said. With Book I we took on 16 beta testers- I think only half ended up staying with it more than a week, and out of them only 3 actually finished the game. Luckily our Book 1 and 2 "inside guys" are freakin' awesome and they put a lot of effort into hunting down the most serious bugs.
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by Randomizer »

BasiliskWrangler wrote:Very well said. With Book I we took on 16 beta testers- I think only half ended up staying with it more than a week, and out of them only 3 actually finished the game. Luckily our Book 1 and 2 "inside guys" are freakin' awesome and they put a lot of effort into hunting down the most serious bugs.
There's the problem with all the broken skills in Book 1. You didn't have a large enough group of surviving testers to try out different character builds. You got most of the game engine bugs, but miss out on game balance.
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CrazyBernie
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by CrazyBernie »

function.require wrote:My opinions are my own and I simply wanted to add to the discussion rather than convince others of my opinion. Sorry if it was taken that way.
And I was merely offering a different point of view. Sorry if I came across as admonishing.... and here I only thought Evnissyen's remarks were allowed to be misconstrued... :shock: I guess I should have used more smilies... :D 8) :mrgreen:
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BasiliskWrangler
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

Randomizer wrote:There's the problem with all the broken skills in Book 1. You didn't have a large enough group of surviving testers to try out different character builds. You got most of the game engine bugs, but miss out on game balance.
Sure- that could be said. Overall, that's the highlight and failure of the Eschalon series: they are skill-based RPGs. There is no possible way to accurately balance every skill combination without compromising the balance of other skill combinations. For every person here who has said Book 1 was too easy, I can find another post by someone saying it was too hard. Mages are the worst, because so many people say mages dominate the game and so many others say it is the hardest character to play. The slightest change in skill balancing there and it becomes even MORE easy for some, and utterly impossible for others.

Developers who make pure Class-based RPGs have it much easier. With classes, you know from the start of the game what the player will and will not have access to and that makes skill balancing M-U-C-H easier to do. Pre-fab class kits and "skill trees" take all the guesswork out of the character-development process. But this isn't role-playing to me. When I start an RPG with pre-fabricated class kits, I know I don't have any true freedom: I will be forced to play the game exactly how the developers wants me to play.

We are going to do our best to balance Book 2, but understand that some of you master RPGers are probably going to find ways to exploit the system by min/maxing certain skill combinations. I really don't think there is anything wrong with that, and we will do our best to make the game challenging to all players.

While typing this I thought of a real-life example: some would say Mark McGwire exploited his character class (Baseball player) by boosting his strength higher than the system intended (through steroid use). Ultimately he would say smacking balls out of the ballpark was easy. Breaking world-records was easy. Being an All-Star player was easy. But he achieved this through min/maxing his skills and exploiting the system. Should the Major League Baseball people make baseball stadiums bigger or the bats heavier to stop people like McGwire from doing what they do, thus making it harder for the average player? Of course not.

So, in Eschalon some players might discover that stat boosting and min/maxing specific skills gives them an advantage inside the game world. We will do what we can to make the game challenging and balanced for everyone, but all open-ended systems are going to have exploitable conditions. For many of us playing this type of game, that is part of the fun! :twisted:
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Drixx
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by Drixx »

BasiliskWrangler wrote:
function.require wrote:I think what I was trying to get at is, if your primary motivation for wanting to be a beta tester is to 'try out' the game before it is released, then you are bound to be disappointed when it turns into a lot of work.
Very well said. With Book I we took on 16 beta testers- I think only half ended up staying with it more than a week, and out of them only 3 actually finished the game. Luckily our Book 1 and 2 "inside guys" are freakin' awesome and they put a lot of effort into hunting down the most serious bugs.
I've been checking back in repeatedly since playing through book one several times (unfortunately a hard drive crash ended my cartography project ... I didn't have the heart to start from scratch) ... I know it's work, but I wouldn't be wanting to test if I wasn't willing to actually contribute something to the incredible games you are making!
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Unbeliever
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by Unbeliever »

I keep shaking my head at this topic. I just can't imagine WANTING to beta-test.

What I want is the final, polished game, to enjoy at my leisure. *NOT* to hammer through, looking for bugs/issues, trying the same thing ten different ways to see what works or not.

Talk about spoiling the final product!

Of course, beta-testers are invaluable, so... test away!

I'll be over here, wallet in hand, patiently waiting for the final rock-solid release... ;)

[Thanks, BW -- SERIOUSLY looking forward to this!]
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by Unclever title »

Unbeliever wrote:I keep shaking my head at this topic. I just can't imagine WANTING to beta-test.
Some of us are just nerds like that. :mrgreen:

Coming from a programming perspective I don't mind finding, experiencing, and testing bugs so long as I'm not the one fixing them. Thorough documentation can at times become tedious, then again I'll admit that I've never beta tested a game before and am curious to experience the process first hand.
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Drixx
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by Drixx »

Aye,

As someone who's been programming for fifteen years, I actually enjoy testing and seeing development level projects. I lost count years ago at how many games and other software that I've tested.
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IJBall
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by IJBall »

I think I would beta test for something like Book II, if I had the time to properly contribute to a beta test.

But, with my teaching schedule, the only times of the year that I'd feel that I could actually contribute something to a beta test would be the month of January, and late July through the end of August.

As it happens, the Mac beta test for Book II is likely to fall into probably my worst (i.e. busiest) time of the year - April-ish (besides April-May, the other worst time of the year for me is Nov-Dec - but I think April-May is slightly worse, because that's also the time I should prep for summer school!).

Bottom line - I'm pretty sure I'm out of this round of beta testing. :cry:

Oh well - I guess I'll just stick to my habit of "gamma testing" Book I at my leisure.
In fact, I'm thinking about taking up another round of "gamma testing" Book I again, soon!! :mrgreen:
mytgroo
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by mytgroo »

Does that mean fifteen to twenty people picked. As per your previous experience, about half quit... Just curious.
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function.require
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by function.require »

IJBall wrote: Oh well - I guess I'll just stick to my habit of "gamma testing" Book I at my leisure.
In fact, I'm thinking about taking up another round of "gamma testing" Book I again, soon!! :mrgreen:
If anyone can find a chink in the armor it's IJBall! He has great Book I posts.
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Samurai Drakon
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by Samurai Drakon »

I'm a mac user :P . Sue me lol. Linux looks cool though!
When will this platform go through beta test (approximatively?). I'd love to lend a helping hand! :)
Good luck with everything! :wink:
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by Dragonlady »

Samurai Drakon wrote:I'm a mac user :P . Sue me lol. Linux looks cool though!
When will this platform go through beta test (approximatively?). I'd love to lend a helping hand! :)
Good luck with everything! :wink:
Soon, hopefully, sometime this month. Keep watch for announcement asking for beta testers.
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MyGameCompany
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Re: Back to Beta

Post by MyGameCompany »

Being a game developer myself, and having run several beta test programs for my own games, I can certainly appreciate what BW is looking for in a beta tester. I've had my own share of testers who either dropped out after one or two quick e-mails, or got hold of the game and never bothered to contribute feedback. Most people think testing games would be fun, because they equate testing with playing.

While it can be beneficial to have a couple of testers just playing through the game like an average gamer would, what you really need are people who will try to break the game by pushing on every boundary, trying to do things you shouldn't be able to do, and intentionally doing things the average gamer won't be trying to do (like touching everything that is supposed to be lethal, looking for ways to get diseased and cursed, discarding items that you probably need to complete the game, etc). Good beta testers are rare and hard to find.

I am definitely interested in beta testing Book II. I'm on a Mac, but I also run Windows and Linux through virtualization software so I can test any or all of the versions of the game. I've participated in beta tests for other indie games, like Runes of Avalon by Anawiki, Lunar Domination by Valen Games, and Mayhem Intergalactic by Inventive Dingo. I also helped test The Three Musketeers by Dingo Games. I'd love to help with Book II. I really enjoyed Book 1, and would like to see Book II be even more successful. And it gives me a much-needed break from my own coding efforts.
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