Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

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KillingMoon
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by KillingMoon »

Thrown Weapons is kinda my favourite topic around here. I believe it is not a real option in the game just now; too weak, but potentially it would give a nice additional strategy option.
Some skills are very similar to each other; Swords, Piercing Weapons, Cleaving Weapons and Bludgeoning Weapons aren't too different from each other.

Thrown Weapons is different, so it's great that the game has it, but it looks like a stillborn now. I hope BasiliskWrangler does a reanimation for the add-on already. We can't expect an overhaul of the system, but damage increase and more pebbles lying around is the least I would expect for the add-on.

To respond to Kelakhai and some others that have given suggestions for Thrown Weapons: I don't really mind that pebbles and stuff disappears with misses. That's one of the features that sets it apart as well. Otherwise you could have a nice bunch of spears and it would last you the rest of the game just like a good sword.
With slings you have the problem that it would make perfect sense to use with stones, but not with spears, so that's not as easy to implement as it may at first seem.

Someone mentioned magic bags that made items weigh less. I'm actually glad that Eschalon doesn't do those, because it's a bit cheap and undermines the importance of strength. It could indeed - CrazyBernie said this - favour types that don't use strength much, like spellcasters, and they don't need further helping. Although I think a mage would be crazy to invest in spears of 200 gold each anyway! What could work out fine is a specialized bag for your equipment type that comes at a certain skill level, if you were desperate for bags.
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Kelakhai
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by Kelakhai »

Thrown weapon exists, as for different melee weapons, so that everyone is not playing the same character. Frankly, which warrior did not upgrade bow before the end ? Thrown weapon is not a serious option without nice upgrades.

Eschalon is like many games, it's done so that you do what you want with your avatar. If bow is not an option but an obligation, the video game fails to give a balanced choice. That's why it needs to be adapted, and not abandonned.

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CrazyBernie
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by CrazyBernie »

Kelakhai wrote: Frankly, which warrior did not upgrade bow before the end ?

*raises hand* Uh, me!

I did not use the bow skill with my warrior. I also sold off several skillbooks without reading them, such as alchemy, unarmed, elemental, divination, etc. Had no use for the bow skill. I did keep some Demon Oils on hand for strategic battles, and also several stones to set off trapped doors and chests. I didn't see the need for bows at all. I played my fighter as "in character" as possible. Lewis the Fighter has no need for fancy parlor tricks or flying twigs.

I don't see why everyone thinks Thrown Weapons needs to be a primary skill. It works fine for someone who wants to have a decent ranged hit without investing in the bow skill. I used it as a final blow to fleeing enemies, or sometimes as a "soften 'em up" tactic.

There's plenty of supplemental skills in Book II, and Thrown Weapons fits right in with them. Just because it's a combat skill doesn't mean it has to stand on its own 100%.
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by IJBall »

CrazyBernie wrote:I don't see why everyone thinks Thrown Weapons needs to be a primary skill. It works fine for someone who wants to have a decent ranged hit without investing in the bow skill. I used it as a final blow to fleeing enemies, or sometimes as a "soften 'em up" tactic.

There's plenty of supplemental skills in Book II, and Thrown Weapons fits right in with them. Just because it's a combat skill doesn't mean it has to stand on its own 100%.
FWIW, that's how I was thinking of approaching Thrown Weapons if I ever get back to trying a 'pure' Fighter character again (my first Fighter ended up being a bust... :( ).

But, yeah - I was thinking about having Swords be my "primary" melee Skill with Thrown (or possibly Bows) as my "secondary" melee Skill; just like, with my Ranger, Bows is my "primary", and Cleaving Weapons is my "secondary".

The problem I have with Book II is that 15 Skill points at character creation isn't even enough Skill points to start off with a "secondary" fighting skill most of the time, which means I'll likely have to add Thrown (or Bows) later, and that always ends up being dicey... :cry:
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Kreador Freeaxe
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

The only change I'd like to see to thrown weapons is a likelihood that they be recoverable. Arrows can be difficult and have a high probability to be unusable after impacting an armored opponent, but most thrown weapons are pretty sturdy. I would think that just making it so that you can get back some of your thrown weapons (like a percentage chance per hit based on your skill level) would be rational.

I also think that making a chance for area effect weapons not to hit where you're aiming if you don't have thrown weapons skill would be sensible. Maybe that demon oil lands a square right or left or beyond your target.
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CrazyBernie
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by CrazyBernie »

IJBall wrote: FWIW, that's how I was thinking of approaching Thrown Weapons if I ever get back to trying a 'pure' Fighter character again (my first Fighter ended up being a bust... :( ).

But, yeah - I was thinking about having Swords be my "primary" melee Skill with Thrown (or possibly Bows) as my "secondary" melee Skill; just like, with my Ranger, Bows is my "primary", and Cleaving Weapons is my "secondary".

The problem I have with Book II is that 15 Skill points at character creation isn't even enough Skill points to start off with a "secondary" fighting skill most of the time, which means I'll likely have to add Thrown (or Bows) later, and that always ends up being dicey... :cry:
Honestly, I didn't actually invest in thrown weapons until mid-game-ish (it just took Lewis a little longer to remember he was proficient this time around ;) ) You don't really need it if you're chucking Demon Oil for strategic positioning, or throwing rocks at traps. It worked out pretty well... 'cause by then I had my Strength up high enough that carrying a small stack of throwing knives or javelin's wouldn't break my back.

I have a thought about the "not enough skillpoints" opinion, but I think I'll run it by BW as a possible Book III enhancement... ^_^
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by Antigrav »

I think the most realistic and fun feat for the thrown weapons skill would be finding a good number of the missiles that missed. The ones that hit should be recoverable every time, but with a chance of being broken.

Mostly kidding about the feat suggestion. Everybody knows it should be a Spot Hidden check. :)
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by KillingMoon »

CrazyBernie wrote:I don't see why everyone thinks Thrown Weapons needs to be a primary skill.
It doesn't need to be primary, but at least interesting enough to invest skillpoints in - at the moment it would be stupid not to invest them in bows or magick instead if you were looking for a supporting skill (I have yet to familiarize myself with Alchemy, so can't speak for that).
From the way the game describes the Thrown Weapons skill, and from all the pictures and names for it, I also sense that Thrown Weapons were intended to play a bigger part in the game, although I'm not sure what BasiliskWrangler had exactly in mind, so I can be wrong.

I'm purely thinking in game terms; from a real life perspective I understand that some stone throwing cave dweller wouldn't stand much chance in a world with hardened steel shields and stuff. Although, on the other hand, with all the rats, wolves and trolls in the game it's a bit of an eclectic mix anyway.

So why not make Thrown Stones stronger? Would that spoil anything?
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CrazyBernie
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by CrazyBernie »

KillingMoon wrote:It doesn't need to be primary, but at least interesting enough to invest skillpoints in - at the moment it would be stupid not to invest them in bows or magick instead if you were looking for a supporting skill (I have yet to familiarize myself with Alchemy, so can't speak for that).
So now I'm stupid because my fighter build doesn't include Bows or Magick? Nice... and here I thought I was being smart by not requiring the development of a fourth or fifth attribute to make my character's skills more effective. :roll:

I find the Thrown Weapons skill plenty interesting to invest my time and skillpoints in developing.
KillingMoon wrote:So why not make Thrown Stones stronger? Would that spoil anything?
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by Farwalker »

CrazyBernie wrote:
I don't see why everyone thinks Thrown Weapons needs to be a primary skill. It works fine for someone who wants to have a decent ranged hit without investing in the bow skill. I used it as a final blow to fleeing enemies, or sometimes as a "soften 'em up" tactic.

There's plenty of supplemental skills in Book II, and Thrown Weapons fits right in with them. Just because it's a combat skill doesn't mean it has to stand on its own 100%.
I do see the importance of it being viable as a primary skill - there should be more to ranged than just arrows and magic and untrained maniacs with demon oil. But I wanted to see it have different advantages than bow, for example.

After playing around with the way Volley currently works I realized its strength could be breaking up a mob of enemies so that they don't end up reaching you and attacking you all at once, or surrounding you so you can't escape if need be. In a sense that would make the feat more of a supplemental strategy than a primary attack strategy. This is an excellent complement to a melee character for example. I suggested a redesigned feat with that in mind (see my revised suggestions) - the chances for fear and slow should effectively break up the mass of enemies. This is a nice contrast to the bow, which is single target focused damage.
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CrazyBernie
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by CrazyBernie »

Farwalker wrote: there should be more to ranged than just arrows and magic and untrained maniacs with demon oil.
Excuse me? ALL There needs to be to ranged combat is untrained maniacs with Demon Oil. Lots of Demon Oil.... :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by silverkitty »

Y'know, he added charm cloud and poison cloud ammo this game, on top of the awesomeness of demon oil. Thrown weapons is the most flexible non-magical combat by far.
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by Farwalker »

silverkitty wrote:Y'know, he added charm cloud and poison cloud ammo this game, on top of the awesomeness of demon oil. Thrown weapons is the most flexible non-magical combat by far.
True, but those are utility items, like quaffing a potion. You need no skill to use it, and having the skill makes little or no difference to the use of them.
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by Kelakhai »

CrazyBernie wrote:*raises hand* Uh, me!

I did not use the bow skill with my warrior.
Sorry, was thinking about Book I that I did finish last week... Since in book II my warrior (Lv16) still doesn't have any skill point in bow (concentrating on dodge and sword, waiting for the skill trainer to pop out... hope I didn't miss it).

So you mean you warrior doesn't have any range fight options ?
Do you plan to fight hand to hand with gobelins suicide powder-kegs carriers ?

Well didn't see any in Book II, but if that happens you'll have to sleep a lot to recover and repair your equipment since explosions now damage the equipment too...
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Re: Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

Post by KillingMoon »

Kelakhai wrote:...in book II my warrior (Lv16) still doesn't have any skill point in bow (concentrating on dodge and sword, waiting for the skill trainer to pop out... hope I didn't miss it).
Sounds like you've overlooked her. I'll give a hint, but I'll put it in a SPOILER:
>>Search for hidden forest lanes!<<
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