What's missing??

Here's where all things related to Book II are being discussed!

What do you feel is missing from Book II??

More quests. :?:
80
36%
More difficulty options. :!:
16
7%
More enemies!! Grimlock Smash!! :twisted:
24
11%
Some wildlife would be nice. Add a little... flair. :idea:
29
13%
More NPCs!! Bring on the victims - er populace. :?
33
15%
Some previously mentioned feature that didn't make it in the game. I really wanted it!! *pout* :(
9
4%
More in-game lore. I'm a read-a-holic. 8)
12
5%
I think Book II is pretty well rounded. :)
16
7%
CrazyBernie's ugly mug! Grimlock Smash More!! :shock:
1
0%
 
Total votes: 220

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KillingMoon
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Re: What's missing??

Post by KillingMoon »

Hmm... I don't have too much of an opinion about which trainer for what and stuff, but I find the whole trainers feature well represented.

Someone I think posted that there were 15 skills for which there are trainers in the game. 15 skills, all trainable up to level 8, so 15 x 8 = 120 opportunities to receive training in the game.
I rather see other ways to upgrade your character than through trainers, as there are so many of them already, especially in one particular seaside town! To get skill points by simply paying for them I don't find extremely gamely, so I would rather cut back this feature than expand on it.

The skill points come a bit slow at some stage, this is true. Maybe 5 instead of 3 skill points can be handed out at level up at some stage, if that makes sense.

The books are fine. Yes, they are well written and give flavour to the game. I'm not sure if I want more books, though. I'm not against having a few skills more represented by a book, but I wouldn't like to see the shops in the game becoming like libraries.

Perhaps an occasional skill can be handed out as a reward for a quest, or a well can somehow give you insight in something... I rather see alternative, more creative means used to hand out skill points in the game than more trainers and books.
IJBall wrote:I could also make the argument that where you need trainers the most is in "secondary" Skills like these. Why? - Because people are going to pump points into Primary skills like Bows and Elemental Magick regardless. It's the Hide in Shadow, Forage, Skullduggery, Dodge, Spot Hidden, and Repair skills of the world where trainers would be most useful! :mrgreen:
Well, yes, I do fully agree with this. Also, skills like Bow and Magick are already frequently handed out at character set-up, while some skills are never handed out at set-up. Those never handed out skills need a book or trainer more badly.

Yes, this idea of a skill book in parts would seem worth pondering over!
Farwalker
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Re: What's missing??

Post by Farwalker »

KillingMoon wrote: I'm not against having a few skills more represented by a book, but I wouldn't like to see the shops in the game becoming like libraries.
I'd like to see some rare books that never show up in shops - you have to explore and find them.

And for the most part I'm not against trainers in some of those "secondary" skills, I just think some trainers are more important to add in than others. BW has great add-in content opportunities here, having new trainers and books available in the new areas would certainly increase interest in the game as that new content is released.

But I did say "for the most part"... in a couple cases adding a trainer may significantly affect game balance. A meditation trainer and book could translate to as much as 2 extra mp/round for a caster which is significant enough to think twice about. A mercantile trainer would certainly shift the balance of the game if they could be reached too early, although a later game mercantile trainer might be fine. Other than that it all sounds good to me.
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Oshkell
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Re: What's missing??

Post by Oshkell »

I could definitely go with more trainers, for sure. I definitely like the idea of training for the "secondary" skills... as it was mentioned, of COURSE I'm going to bump up my weaponry/magicky skills - that's a given!

But somewhere in the back of my mind, I just wonder how many more hidden gemstones I ignorantly walked past, by skimping that 1 point that would have gone into Spot. -_-

Poor gemstones. You hang in there! I'm coming for you, my babies! :D
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Re: What's missing??

Post by niek »

Something totally different, inspired by the features topic in the RPG forum:

I think it's kind of a pity that we just spent the time between book I and II fishing of all things. It would've been nice to choose a bit how we spent our time and get subsequent bonuses/penalties, like extra strength when farming, extra dexterity when hunting, extra wisdom when studying, things like that.

On second thought you allocate points for those, so how about getting starting spells, or different gear, skills, money and such
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Re: What's missing??

Post by guacamole »

Some ideas to tighten up game content for players:

1. Eliminate some redundancy in spells

Flesh boil => sunder flesh, for example. I'm not certain, with scaling magical skills and spell power that you'd need both as one simply seems to scale up the damage of the other. I't be cool if, with proper training, you could scale up the power of fire dart to become fireball to become nova.

2. Hard money caps for merchants

Pain in the bum = not fun for players. I've always found a way to sell the things I want to sell, even if it involves manipulation by buying and selling, or traveling to multiple locations. Even if the only place where you can sell whatever you want is Port K. You should still have something like that. Alternately, you could have a "hock" option that would allow you to sell something for a fragment of value.

3. Draw water and create food make the game easy for mages and gives them more cash.

I would allow certain foods to be bought in unlimited quantities in certain locations--that is, you wouldn't have to wait for the innkeeper to reload: East Willow: rat meat, potatoes, buscuits, whereas in Port K. finer ingredients could be found and made. I know you're just starting to figure out the balance of food and water requirements in the game. I also like the way in provides a practical limitation on exploration time and distance... so long as you aren't a wizard.

4. Some spells negate potion requirements for wizards.

It's cheap and easy for mages to eliminate poison, disease, and curses. It also gives mages more cash.

5. Allowing wizards to see in the dark eliminates another point of tension.

I once read that the most difficult spell for a DM to deal with is "Light" because darkness is such an important dramatic tool. Torches and lanterns would be more necessary. It would also be cool if, given cost or finding unique items, or having a high enough alchemy skill, you could create ever burning torches, lanterns of revealing (giving bonuses to spot) etc. I'd make players work a little harder for light in dungeons.

6. Manipulating points 3-5 above could make for interesting scaling in difficulty.

7. I'd like monsters to respawn. I know some people don't, but that might also allow a difficulty increase. The game would ramp up in difficulty if you could tweak monster stats, eliminate common curing, light, and logistical spells, and allow respawns. Can you imagine getting out of a deep long dungeon trying to get back to Port K. poisoned and worried that those giant beetles will respawn? Classic stuff.

8. To make up for some the wizardly hamstringing that would accomplish, I'd give wizards something like "water walk" to allow them quicker navigation, or "ghost walk" to let them (at the lowest levels) pass through trees and (at the higher levels) walk through stone walls. In addition, some wizardly feats would be cool.

9. All those scrolls for spells could be put to additional use if they could be cannibalized for alchemical processes, a minor amount of experience points, or even a boost to the spell level.

10. More items. More fun items. More useless items. More craftable items. More expendable items. More customizable items. More items. Make people buy potions! Cinnamon rolls! Bottles of dwarven whiskey!

Meh.

More when I think of it.

I've loved the game, by the way.

Cheers.
guaca.
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IJBall
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Re: What's missing??

Post by IJBall »

guacamole wrote:Some ideas to tighten up game content for players:

3. Draw water and create food make the game easy for mages and gives them more cash.
I really like someone's suggestion that Draw Water and Create Food spells should only go towards (re)filling up your Thirst & Hunger status bars, rather than actually filling your Water Skin or creating food items. (I guess higher casting level would "refill" more of your Thirst & Hunger status bars...)

I feel like just this change would go a long way towards balancing these two spells.

(Conversely, however, I still would like to see Forage change to where Forage would allow for finding food types in your Forage loot sack (and possibly slowly refill your Water Skin?...), as well as finding alchemical reagents - and the feature where Forage "slows" the decline if the Thirst & Hunger status bars can be dropped in the Draw Water and Create Food spells are reworked as suggested above.)
guacamole wrote:7. I'd like monsters to respawn. I know some people don't, but that might also allow a difficulty increase...
I'd settle for monsters respawning in just some areas (e.g. out in the forests; in dungeons; etc.).
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IJBall
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Re: What's missing??

Post by IJBall »

Hey, somewhere on this forum is a thread about the house that seems to be at the corner of 4 maps (Broken Blade, E Fellpine, NW Kessian Basin & Mistfell N Coast) that can't{edit} be "entered" (i.e. is "unreachable") - anyone know where I can find that thread?

And, more to the point - anyone know whether that house will be "enterable" with the expansion pack?

(P.S. Edit: Thanks to JL, for his answer below! :) )
Last edited by IJBall on June 21st, 2010, 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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IJBall
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Re: What's missing??

Post by IJBall »

More thinking this question over having now played all the way through once...:

I'm pretty sure I mentioned it elsewhere, but I find the biggest noticeable "game atmosphere" difference between Book I and Book II is the lack of just plain "clickable" stuff:
  • No clickable skeletons anywhere in Book II (I was surprised that none of the skeletons were clickable this time...)
  • No clickable bookcases
  • No clickable shelves
Etc.

I suspect this is a direct result of Book II having been a little rushed on the gameworld development at the end. And I'm pretty much fine with this, as a lot of important gameengine advances have been made in Book II.

I guess I'd just like to see more of the development of Book III go into the kinds of nice little atmospheric 'touches' that made Book I so darn enjoyable. :)
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KillingMoon
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Re: What's missing??

Post by KillingMoon »

guacamole wrote:I would allow certain foods to be bought in unlimited quantities in certain locations--that is, you wouldn't have to wait for the innkeeper to reload...
It's maybe good to note that at inns you can already rent a room for the night which also fills up your water and food bars completely.
I agree with the spells Draw Water and Create Food being not so good. I don't mind Draw Water, but Create Food makes a joke of the food and water requirement, and also can be used to make money; I think the game shoots itself in the foot with having this spell.

I agree with most of your points, Guacamole.
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IJBall
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Re: What's missing??

Post by IJBall »

IJBall wrote:
Wachunga wrote:Here are some other ideas for improvement I jotted down during my recent play-through:
  1. {snip}
  2. character stats: show descriptions when right-clicking individual stats
I suggested your #2 going into Book II - control-clicking the Stats window for both Skill and Attribute descriptions - it didn't happen, but I'm hoping it'll happen for Book III.
By the same token, as I was playing today, I realized it was also be really useful if you could control-click/right-click the various little 'Skill Feat' status buttons to get a more detailed description of what each Skill Feat is/does.
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Re: What's missing??

Post by choconutjoe »

A more interactive world, ala the Ultima series: more NPCs, more non-combat stuff to do, more interactive items. Of course, high levels of detail are difficult with a small development team, but hey, you asked.
After some reflection, I think it boils down to lack of flavour. Where are the quirky NPCs? Witty dialogue? Memorable characters? One of the best things about old-school RPGs, in my mind, was the emphasis on story and characters, and I think Book 2 is missing the latter.

Flavour also comes from quests. To my recollection, every Book 2 quest is a variation of the following:

* Deliver/collect X to/from Y
* Speak with X
* Find/destroy X


How about some of these types of quests?

* Escape from X
* Rescue X from Y (or kidnap)
* Escort X to Y
* Accomplish X in Y turns/days/whatever
* Explore X (eg reveal whole map through cartography)
THIS!

Book I seemed to lack anything even remotely like this, so I got really excited when I loaded up Book II and the first side-quest I got was to solve a money dispute between two NPCs. Unfortunately the trend didn't really continue much throughout the rest of the game (the werewolf quest was cool though!).

Stuff like this is really good as it fleshes out the world enormously, which makes for a much more engrossing experience. IMO, that's what makes games like Ultima and Fallout still stand out today: Their worlds actually feel like they are inhabited by people, not just faceless NPCs selling you things or telling you to collect '10 of x'.

So, more NPCs, and more quests revealing the smaller details of the world and the characters in it. As far possible as anyway :D
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Re: What's missing??

Post by Antigrav »

choconutjoe wrote:
A more interactive world, ala the Ultima series: more NPCs, more non-combat stuff to do, more interactive items. Of course, high levels of detail are difficult with a small development team, but hey, you asked.
After some reflection, I think it boils down to lack of flavour. Where are the quirky NPCs? Witty dialogue? Memorable characters? One of the best things about old-school RPGs, in my mind, was the emphasis on story and characters, and I think Book 2 is missing the latter.

Flavour also comes from quests. To my recollection, every Book 2 quest is a variation of the following:

* Deliver/collect X to/from Y
* Speak with X
* Find/destroy X


How about some of these types of quests?

* Escape from X
* Rescue X from Y (or kidnap)
* Escort X to Y
* Accomplish X in Y turns/days/whatever
* Explore X (eg reveal whole map through cartography)
THIS!

Book I seemed to lack anything even remotely like this, so I got really excited when I loaded up Book II and the first side-quest I got was to solve a money dispute between two NPCs. Unfortunately the trend didn't really continue much throughout the rest of the game (the werewolf quest was cool though!).

Stuff like this is really good as it fleshes out the world enormously, which makes for a much more engrossing experience. IMO, that's what makes games like Ultima and Fallout still stand out today: Their worlds actually feel like they are inhabited by people, not just faceless NPCs selling you things or telling you to collect '10 of x'.

So, more NPCs, and more quests revealing the smaller details of the world and the characters in it. As far possible as anyway :D
I think the above ideas combined with some training suggestions would really go a long way toward making two groups very happy: Quests that must be carried out in order to learn skills.
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Re: What's missing??

Post by badsector »

Greetings. Very addictive game but there are a few things that could be changed so the gameplay runs more smooth. The most important is the map. Not the minimap, but the map of the region in the case of EB2 map of Mistfell. It should have all the sectors, that the player has been to, noted on the map along with the different areas in each sector so you can have an overall overview on mouse over (or even a mini image of the minimap for that region, like Windows Aero preview). Of course this could be done by everyone on a sheet of paper, but it would be a nice and tidy feature.
Another easiness for the player would be visual removal of trees. Now sometimes it's hard to find your way between the trees ot even to see enemies let alone calculating projectile trajectory. It would be nice if the player is able to virtually remove the trees, for example pressing "Tab" key remains only the trunks.
In my opinion it rains too often.
A possibility to write notes ingame and map markers. Again it's not a problem to do it on a sheet of paper but ingame it would be faster :)
The Quickload button loads Quickasave, not need to choose it.
Day/night indicator to become transparent or so on mouse over.
Higher resolution.
Ability do drag the minimap, for example by holding right mouse key.
Counter for the remaining enemies :D
As there is maximum damage, there should be minimum damage.
Dynamic information on quests, i.g. "kill 23 bugs for someone" changes to "You have killed 23 bugs, return to someone for reward".
It would be nice to diversify the quest rewards, i.g. potions that give permanent boost to skills/resistances/experience.
More diversity in equipment.
Health and mana should fully recharge overnight while camping.
Gravedigger's flame amulet like in part one.
Now there are too much large unpopulated areas, it's boring to walk so much.
The game is a little bit short.
In most cases the player should be able to reach the level cap a little before the ending.
The food should be cooked somehow, or even you can put cooking recepies that give temporal stats boost, but eating raw rat meat is disgusting.
Smiths should make stuff on errand from your materials and magic shop owners can imbue this stuff with what the player likes.
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KillingMoon
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Re: What's missing??

Post by KillingMoon »

badsector wrote:As there is maximum damage, there should be minimum damage.
The minimum damage is half the maximum damage.
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Re: What's missing??

Post by Bob the Thief »

Couple of things that I would like:

The maps should hold that highest level detail. If you have some high cartography skill (say due to an amulet) you get a better map. If you take the amulet off and revisit the map the detail is overwritten and reduced. Assuming you either remember what you saw before or were actually making a map. Why would the map change because your cartography is now less than before? This makes the reveal map spell more useful. You'd use it to make a better map of certain areas.

The user should be able to look at a map of all the areas that have been revealed so far as one thing, not have to travel to a area (square) to see that region's map.

All the shops are open all the time. Perhaps when it is dark or late the shops will close. Not only will you have to amuse yourself (e.g. cause trouble) while waiting for the shop to open if you get there at the wrong time, you could also have the opportunity to break in and help yourself to things, with the appropriate consequences if you get caught (thrown in jail, some task to perform for restitution, fined, banned from the town, chased by the town guards, possessions confiscated, etc.). A successful thief could steal stuff in one town and sell it in another.
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