Why do you enjoy Rolling to determine character attributes?

[Forral]

I was building a new character in Eschalon the other night whom was intended to go for the Jack of All trades achivement, and also played in a manner suitable for such a character. In order for such a character to be effective I'm under the impression that it's rather important to attempt to make sure that you take full advantage of not only Training and Books but also getting as high attributes as possible.

Ie, if you want to actually make use of these diverse skills, you can't really have any dump attributes. You'll need high intelligence and wisdom for magic, high strength to be able to wear armour properly and inflict damage in melee combat, high dexterity for this and high concentration for that. Essentially all your attributes are important.

So I found myself Re-Rolling my attributes continously, hoping to increase my total number of allocated attribute points as far as possible. I was doing this for a very long time- something I clearly remember from my times of D&D. I'm personally not very fond of this system for rolling characters, and I've never looked back to it since I discovered the point-based systems where you essentially purchase your attributes from a pool of attribute points. Not only is easier for the designer to control the difficulty curve of a game with such an approach, by ensuring balanced character builds, but it also lifts the dreary task of endless re-rolling off the shoulders of players who wish to make effective characters.

Now, before you pour gasoline over me and stick me on the pyre- let me state that I am in no way attempting to lobby for a change in Eschalon or any of your other pet games. The purpose of my post is rather to ask:

Why is this system of rolling characters liked, to such a point that it's announced as a 'feature' in some games?

From listening to the stories my friends told from Baldurs Gate and Temple of Elemental Evil among other games, every single one of them would repeatedly re-roll untill they got their desired stats. In some of these games, in fact 'not' re-rolling untill you have favorable stats will make games near impossible, while in others the game will be effortlessly easy.

To me it seems like a pointless process of unneccessary tedium that begins grating on your players' nerves before even get to begin playing your game.

Anyways, as bolded above, I'm not interessted in forcing any change to the game. I'm just curious why people enjoy this mechanic. Is it just a case of nostalgia, or do you feel some sense of accomplishment when you've achieved the desireable stats through repeatedly clicking on a button? Is the reason something else entirely? Help me understand this!

[BasiliskWrangler]

Have you ever played Slots in a casino? You sit there, you put in your money, and hit a button (you don't even have to pull the arm down anymore). Sometimes you win a few coins back, and every once it a while you might win something more substantial. The point is: there is something about the process that makes it addictive for most people...the chance that they may win big. Maybe on the next play you'll get four gold bars and hit the jackpot!

Creating a character by randomly generating stats is the same idea. It's a simple gambling game- do you give up a good set of scores for the possibility of an even better set? In essence, it's a mini-game all of its own.

[SpottedShroom]

Good answer!

I was also always one of those D&D players who prefers random generation to point buy. Heck, I even like 3d6 "in order" method!

[Slarty]

That is a good answer.

It should be pointed out that "rolling" and "rerolling" are not the same thing. Rolling originated with D&D and other tabletop RPGs. In that context it makes a lot of sense -- you are creating a character you are going to ROLE play; the stats are aids in this regard, and the randomization makes it interesting. Rerolling for a computer RPG is, as BW points out, more like a mini-game.

The problem the OP notes is that, because it has a very direct impact on the game, it's essentially impossible to opt out of that particular mini-game if (1) you don't enjoy it AND (2) you do enjoy optimizing your characters. (Personally, I agree with those sentiments, though I don't feel strongly about it.)

[Oshkell]

I like rolling in Eschalon because of the nifty dice sound that is made when you click the button. <3

I like rolling for stats in general (regardless of what I'm playing, but particularly tabletop D&D) partly for the reason BW specified, and partly because it helps me flesh out the imagined personality of my characters. If Bobby the dwarf has a particularly low Wisdom, but high Constitution, it leads me to imagine what kinds of bar brawls he's been in. If Tim the wizard has a low Strength but high Intelligence, he might be snooty and con people into carrying things for him... etc.

When I strictly point buy, the POWAH GAMUH in me takes over - I minmax like a madman. I do one thing, and one thing only with my characters, but I do it really well. However, it takes me longer to become fond of this point-bought character, which means I run the risk of becoming disinterested with him or her, because the character was never "born," per se. It was calculated and constructed to do just one thing. This can tie in to games like Eschalon, where RP is not quite as important to the storyline as in other games, because if I become disinterested in my character, I want to make another... and then another after I lose interest in that... and so the process repeats itself. Eventually, I lose interest in the game itself, because I've spent so long playing the first section of the game forty-seven times with different character builds.

I'm exaggerating a little here, but you get the idea.

[CrazyBernie]

That is a good answer.

It should be pointed out that "rolling" and "rerolling" are not the same thing. Rolling originated with D&D and other tabletop RPGs. In that context it makes a lot of sense -- you are creating a character you are going to ROLE play; the stats are aids in this regard, and the randomization makes it interesting. Rerolling for a computer RPG is, as BW points out, more like a mini-game.

The problem the OP notes is that, because it has a very direct impact on the game, it's essentially impossible to opt out of that particular mini-game if (1) you don't enjoy it AND (2) you do enjoy optimizing your characters. (Personally, I agree with those sentiments, though I don't feel strongly about it.)

It's not impossible to opt out... you just press F1-F5 and get a "pregenerated" character build.

To the OP: Why do people play games like Diablo non-stop and for years on end when all they're doing is killing enemies while looking for better weapons and armor? Most of the weapons and armor are just rehashed versions of themselves with slightly better stats. Same for the enemies.

Why do people play World of Warcraft, which involves repeating the same 10 quests over and over with minor variations on the names used and quantities of items/enemies fetched/killed?

Answer: Because it's what they enjoy. You ask why the re-rolling system is liked, when the question itself is the answer.

You don't *need* to incessantly re-roll your stats; you do it because you want to. You don't *need* to compete the Jack of All Trades achievement; you do it because you want to. I don't believe there's really any other reason... except maybe that it's genetic. 0_o

[Gorgon Rider]

I feel pretty much as BW, Slarty, and Oshkell said, but a couple coppers to add:

point-buy, I find, is great for a 'level playing field' when you're playing with others. In a single player game, I don't like it, as I end up doing just what Oshkell does and min/maxing like a mad man. I know I don't have to, but that's what I do.

The random rolling gives me a chance to roll an uber character if that's what I want, or it gives me the chance to play one with one or two major flaws, if that's what I want. Sometimes it's fun to play the latter, especially on a subsequent run through the game when you have a good idea what's in store.

One thing to keep in mind about the 'Jack of all Trades' that you wanted to roll: if you really feel you need all high stats for that type of character, point-buy wouldn't give you that. Random rolling is always on average slightly worse than point buy, but it also always has the chance of generating much higher stats.

[Slarty]

it's essentially impossible to opt out of that particular mini-game if (1) you don't enjoy it AND (2) you do enjoy optimizing your characters.

It's not impossible to opt out... you just press F1-F5 and get a "pregenerated" character build.

Using the pregenerated characters does not even remotely count as "optimizing."

[Forral]

Why do people play games like Diablo non-stop and for years on end when all they're doing is killing enemies while looking for better weapons and armor? Most of the weapons and armor are just rehashed versions of themselves with slightly better stats. Same for the enemies.

Why do people play World of Warcraft, which involves repeating the same 10 quests over and over with minor variations on the names used and quantities of items/enemies fetched/killed?

Answer: Because it's what they enjoy. You ask why the re-rolling system is liked, when the question itself is the answer.

I ask because I seek to understand the answer, not simply hear the answer. The answer is useless without understanding the foundation behind it.

Anyways, I think you make some really strange comparisons here. Questioning the fun of repetitive gameplay certainly has its place, but in your examples there's at least some kind of graphics and persistent consequences to each of your clicks to distract you from the bitter truth of there being little more to it than pressing a button repeatedly and watching random numbers generate. If you strip away the fluff of story, graphics, sound and so on from any cRPG you'll essentially end up with a random number mechanic. However, the random number mechanic on it's own is probably not enough to keep anyone's attention long.

I don't know if you've seen these spoof videos online about "The most addictive online game ever" in which the world is falling apart because a new online game which solely consists of pressing the same button repeatedly has been released, turning people into drooling zombies. It's utterly unbelievable, but it's just supposed to be funny, because no one in their right mind actually believes that the random number mechanic alone can uphold a game.

This leads me to believe that it's not actually the creation of a random number that is interesting but actually "winning", which draws direct parallels back to the situation of gambling that 'Basilisk suggested right away. I know Sid Meyer has been yapping about that in the past, claiming that: "People want to win- so make sure they don't lose!!!"

Although I think the old man is jumping to conclusions and needs a kick to the noggin' occasionally, I reckon he's partially right. People do want to win, but the difficulty of wresting victory from the clutches of defeat need to be substantial enough for them to actually gain any joy from their accomplishment. Since effortless victory gives little more than a meh impression on your player, one might reason that it's not winning people want in the end, but achieving. So my definition of fun becomes: “Overcoming obstacles – Accomplishment”, and the greater the obstacle climbed the greater the sense of satisfaction of the accomplishment.

If this seems like a pointless sidetrack to the discussion, I'll apologize, but it does have a point.

If the reason that rolling and re-rolling for stats is interesting is because it's similar to gambling, it still lacks many of the aspects that actually make gambling interesting, such as persistent gains and losses. In actual gambling, each result of the dice thrown will have an effect on you: It'll gain you something (money) or it'll make you lose something (money).

In the case of rolling for stats, however, there will be no persistent consequences of each die thrown or each click of the re-roll button. If you so re-roll once or five hundred times it will only be that last re-roll that ever matter. The rest of the rolls did not contribute to anything besides "mathematically" increasing your chances of having a better outcome of your next re-roll due to your previous poor results. Unlike in gambling, you’re not restricted by the money in your pockets but you have every capability in the world to keep clicking that button until the end of time, waiting for “the perfect roll."

When you finally get that "perfect roll" would you actually feel fulfilled though? Was it fun? Do you feel like you’ve just managed an astounding accomplishment, clicking that button a grand total of 65 382 times?

Despite your answers, guys, I’m afraid I still don’t really get it. Then again, I suppose I don’t much like gambling either. I know someone invested money into that slot machine there in corner, not to entertain me or let me win tons of money but to leech every last coin out of the masses that hope for the jackpot; same deal with the lottery, black jack, roulette– pretty much every form of organized gambling. It's rigged in such a way that the house has a significantly higher chance of winning, ensuring that they can all profit from our stupidity.

Maybe I'd find it more fun if I stopped thinking, analyzing, planning and reasoning and instead just "rolled" with it. Unfortunately I'm just not built that way.

[iamrichard]

Why? one word: Addictive!

[Elwro]

I'd prefer to have an option of receiving a pool of points for allocation during character generation.

[Oshkell]

I know Sid Meyer has been yapping about that in the past, claiming that: "People want to win- so make sure they don't lose!!!"

Nur? ._. I liked Book II so much because it kicked me in the bum-bum the first time around. I died of starvation as a penniless pauper.

[IJBall]

Nur? ._. I liked Book II so much because it kicked me in the bum-bum the first time around. I died of starvation as a penniless pauper.

I think the original question is about re-rolling during character creation specifically, not about Book II in general.

Personally, I like the rerolling process because it allows for some 'customization' on my end, while still seeing to some random composition for a character. I think it'd be really much more boring if we were just given 75 points Attribute points at the beginning that we could distribute how we see fit. With the re-rolling process, we can customize to get certain values in certain Attributes, while perhaps leaving other attributes 'dicier'. Also, the rolling process allows one to play a "hobbled" character with low Attribute numbers across the board, which a 'set-distribution' system really wouldn't allow for.

Besides, one nice thing about Book II - the rerolling process is much faster than it was in Book I! It really doesn't take all that long to re-roll until one obtains some pretty good (or some really bad, if desired!) stats...

[CrazyBernie]

*snip*

The answer is 42. I can offer no more explanation.

[Thief]

Hmm I find rolling for stats and character creation the best part of Book II. I've created a bunch of cool characters I never play. Heh.