I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by BasiliskWrangler » July 4th, 2010, 5:32 pm

Elwro wrote:What I don't like is this: since I thought my character was basically behaving like an idiot (What Korren told him boiled down to "All 4 Crux at the same place means HORROR, so let's gather at least 2 of them at the same place, you know, uh, to destroy them" - it's natural to think that he WANTS the 4 Crux to be joined), I stashed the Crux of Fire neatly in a chest before confronting Gorr. And what do you know? The game didn't take into account that I didn't have the Crux in my inventory! The ending credits played as if my character was holding the Crux which he had previously hidden in a chest elsewhere!

This is not a wrong assumption on my part -- this is the game missing an important variable!
This would be considered an inventory check problem...Korren should not be able to be summoned without the Crux of Fire in your possession (and thus the end can never occur). I thought it was set up this way, but apparently it is not, so this falls in to "bug" category. I will address this in 1.04.

As for everything else regarding storyline, I can say no more. There is much to come in Book III, and I certainly hope the handful of you who didn't enjoy the storyline in B2 come back to see how the trilogy wraps up.
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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by MyGameCompany » July 4th, 2010, 6:53 pm

Overall, I'm enjoying the story so far. Granted, there are lots of questions I don't have the answers to yet, but considering this is only the second act in a 3-part play, I'll reserve judgment until I see how Book 3 ends.
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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by trinko » July 4th, 2010, 7:03 pm

The game's plot is very very very very very very bad for this genre. Think about it. We go from fantasy to sci-fi nearly 2/3rds of the way through the plot? That's just bad. It'd be like running into Luke Skywalker 2/3 of the way through Lord of the Rings. I mean plasma guns and computer terminals 10 minutes prior to finishing a game that takes 10's of hours to play? It spoiled my whole game experience. You might be able to get away with that in a hack and slash but in an RPG? Maybe if you'd been laying clues since the beginning, meetings with strange cloaked figures in the woods, voices in your head with guidance, a glimpse of technology here and there, say where you found the bell tree, etc and this thing might be credible. Or even if your aliens were magic users. But there's a reason I've never played any of the sci-fi RPGs and back in the day why I played D&D not Traveler. As a customer I think it's kinda unfair to jump the shark like this. Now I did enjoy the game up until meeting the alien so I don't feel ripped off but I do have a bad taste in my mouth due to the ending. I mean is Book III going to end with Scotty beaming me up just before the trilithium crystals... Crux explode?

I too thought that Korran had switched sides like sparrow. It was insane to go into the heart of the enemies tower and then hand him another crux. But I brought the Crux figuring the plot would let me kill Korran as the last Boss of the game. But to have it turn out that that was the real plot is really nonsensical. The Orakur created the guild to protect the Crux but the guild comes up with a final option to destroy a Crux? While I hate micromanaging that seems a bit of a too loose management style by the Orakur.

Massive Plot Holes:
1) The One is too powerful for the other Orakur to deal with but too weak to do what my character does, sneak in and steal a Crux.
2) The Orakur do nothing but let one of themselves get captured in hopes that they can plead with me to not do what the organization they founded wants to do, destroy a Crux? They founded the group, they've watched the group, they know my mission but they don't bother to talk to Karron or even me prior to 3/4 of the way through what looks like a suicide mission?
3) The Orakur entrust their only way off the planet to a bunch of primitives. When's the last time you heard the Conquistadors turning their compasses over to the Maya?
4) If the guild could make an eyepiece that let's you teleport into the tower why couldn't they make another one that would teleport you out with the Crux. Oh sure the eyepiece could be a one of a kind item but since it's the only way to find the guild headquarters I'd think they would have made more than one.
5) The Orakur knew my mission but the only way they could talk to me was by being captured? They are so knowledgeable and manipulative that they knew the cage their guy was put in was on my way--what if i hadn't talked to the guy because I thought it was a trap?--but they couldn't figure out that they could have met me at the harbor where I got the boat to the island?

One way to work around 2&3 would be that the One is the only Orakur that has any power. But if that's the case what's the basis for all of the legends? Also why didn't the alien say so? Also if they're so weak and powerless how did they know about my mission? Please Please don't pull out some prime directive like thing since clearly if one of their own, the One, is breaking the rule he needs to be stopped in order to uphold the prime directive.

I don't care what new info you add to the game you can't undo contradictions in a reasonable way. But anyway the real problem is that I bought a fantasy RPG and you delivered a fantasy RPG with no ending and a cliff hanger pseudo ending to a Sci-Fi RGP which I wouldn't have bought. Well I might have since there's a dearth of decent RPG like mac games. Still.... Aaaaaaaaaargh.

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by Elwro » July 4th, 2010, 7:10 pm

trinko wrote:The game's plot is very very very very very very bad for this genre. Think about it. We go from fantasy to sci-fi nearly 2/3rds of the way through the plot? That's just bad. It'd be like running into Luke Skywalker 2/3 of the way through Lord of the Rings. I mean plasma guns and computer terminals 10 minutes prior to finishing a game that takes 10's of hours to play? It spoiled my whole game experience. You might be able to get away with that in a hack and slash but in an RPG?
I agree with the main message of your post, but I just wanted to let you know that that's basically what happened in Might and Magic VI :D Anyway, I hope we won't start with amnesia in the 3rd part.

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by CrazyBernie » July 4th, 2010, 8:18 pm

Hmm.... I see a possible poll in the near future... 0_o

In regards to the Fantasy to Sci-Fi transition that is being assumed, has anyone ever played Albion?? ^_^ Heck, has anyone played Final Fantasy games for that matter.... it's not really an unheard of blending of genres...

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by Gorgon Rider » July 4th, 2010, 8:49 pm

You mention playing D&D: do you remember Expedition to the Barrier Peaks? That blended fantasy and sci-fi. In fact, that's what the main point of the module was.

Admittedly, that wasn't one of my favorite modules, and I don't generally like mixing the two genres, but as noted many times before: it's all assumption at this point that this is what's going on (although I do believe this is the case). I think it's worthwhile to wait until Book III comes out to see where the story goes before judging its merits. That's what I intend to do, anyway.

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by trinko » July 4th, 2010, 10:12 pm

It's not the blending of genres that I'm objecting to. It's the way it was done. 100hrs of game play Book I and most of Book II pure fantasy RPG. Out of left field with no warning--other than the plasma gun which also shows up late--ET beams aboard. As I said if it was done right with lots of early clues etc it might have worked.

If it was a short scenario it wouldn't matter so much. For example one game that was run back in the 70's was one team of players thought they were playing a WWII tactical wargame. They had a bunch of German soldiers and a tank or two. The other group of gamers thought they were playing a D&D scenario with miniatures. When the two came together it was really wild, fireballs vs tanks etc. However that only took a few hours to play and so anyone who was disappointed only wasted a little time.

In this case it feels like there's no ending to the game. By the way the whole cliffhanger thing even without the aliens is not my idea of cool in games that come out years apart.

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by trinko » July 4th, 2010, 10:18 pm

Gorgon Rider wrote:You mention playing D&D: do you remember Expedition to the Barrier Peaks? That blended fantasy and sci-fi. In fact, that's what the main point of the module was.

Admittedly, that wasn't one of my favorite modules, and I don't generally like mixing the two genres, but as noted many times before: it's all assumption at this point that this is what's going on (although I do believe this is the case). I think it's worthwhile to wait until Book III comes out to see where the story goes before judging its merits. That's what I intend to do, anyway.
I never played the canned scenarios. At cal tech we had enough DM's that we always played custom scenarios.

Your approach doesn't work for me though. While we don't know what will happen in Book III we know what happened in Book II. Waking up in Book III discovering that the aliens were a dream or that they were lying or whatever weird solution might be invoked won't make the ending of Book II any more palatable or enjoyable to me. I was expecting a fantasy ending and I didn't get one. Maybe 3 years from now I'll find out that the ending was really fantasy and the aliens bogus but by then I'll have forgotten the whole game anyway. I'm blessed with a short memory for these games so I can go back after 2-3 years and replay them without remembering so much that they're not fun.

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by Sslaxx » July 5th, 2010, 6:28 am

Has all the whining stopped yet?

Yes, trinko, we get the idea you think the plot sucks (and that you think sci-fi and fantasy are oil-and-water genres). Nobody's forced you to play the damned game, and nobody's going to force you to to buy Book III either. If I were BW, I'm not sure I'd consider your money worth all the bitching.
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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by Elwro » July 5th, 2010, 6:46 am

Jesus Christ, guys, come on, take it easy. This thread on the whole is constructive criticism. Don't let it become a flamefest.

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by silverkitty » July 5th, 2010, 8:53 am

silverkitty wrote:oddly, I think it's even fixable. When I get the Crux of Fire and bring it to Korren, he could say "gimme that, and I'll teleport to your location when you get to the Crux of Ages" and then you can either (a) do it, or (b) say, "uh, I don't trust you, hows about I bring it with me?" and he can say "that's dumb, what if you die?" and you can then hand it over, or say, "it's a risk I'm going to have to take because I'm not sure about your plan," or say, "try to stop me, sucka." (nefarious) to which he'd reply with a sigh, "no, no need for us to fight internally. I guess I'll just have to hope you won't die". Then proceed with game as written, and suddenly you feel a lot less like you're the dumby in the room
It's sad (to me) that this paragraph is going to get lost in the noise.

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by Turtle » July 5th, 2010, 10:20 am

Hear, hear.

Silverkitty and Elwro both make excellent points. So does Trinko, even leaving aside the whole genre issue.

I think everyone here pretty much enjoyed the game, but some of us were left unsatisfied by the ending and some elements of the plot. The fact that it's the middle of a trilogy should not mean that the developer is excused from having it make some kind of internal sense. Forcing my character to do things that are obviously stupid breaks the sense of immersion; from then on I'm just going along to see what is supposed to happen.

Leaving a few enigmas for the final installment is fine, but leaving the player with the impression that none of it makes any sense (even if some grand explanation really exists and will be revealed in the final chapter) is not a good design choice.

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by obiwan » July 5th, 2010, 11:20 am

Just to let you know some different noise:

I actually liked the SF twist. I was not even that surprised. Perhaps it fits with some of my own stories or ideas.

I do think there are some strange things in the plot, but this could be just the result of us not knowing everything. Heck...for all I know *I* might be the One (or his agent), and the orakur is just trying to stop me:)

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by slm » July 5th, 2010, 11:59 am

Obviously what we need is a game for which Spiderweb does the story and Basilisk does the game engine.

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Re: I really don't like the ending [massive spoilers]

Post by IJBall » July 5th, 2010, 12:01 pm

silverkitty wrote:
silverkitty wrote:oddly, I think it's even fixable. When I get the Crux of Fire and bring it to Korren, he could say "gimme that, and I'll teleport to your location when you get to the Crux of Ages" and then you can either (a) do it, or (b) say, "uh, I don't trust you, hows about I bring it with me?" and he can say "that's dumb, what if you die?" and you can then hand it over, or say, "it's a risk I'm going to have to take because I'm not sure about your plan," or say, "try to stop me, sucka." (nefarious) to which he'd reply with a sigh, "no, no need for us to fight internally. I guess I'll just have to hope you won't die". Then proceed with game as written, and suddenly you feel a lot less like you're the dumby in the room
It's sad (to me) that this paragraph is going to get lost in the noise.
I actually agree with this revision as well. It does make a lot more sense to hand over the Crux of Fire to Korren for safe keeping rather than hauling it around yourself.

And, revising what you suggest, if you refuse to hand it over, that could lead to a battle with Korren (and Erubor) - a battle your character would surely lose (at that point in the game). So you'd be pretty much forced, by plot, to hand the Crux over to Korren.

Also, then, there wouldn't even need to be an 'inventory check' in Talushorn - either you'd have the Looking Glass to summon Korren (and the Crux of Fire) to Talushorn, or you wouldn't, in which case you couldn't complete the game.

Anyway, I do think the storyline works better if you aren't hauling around the Crux of Fire yourself the whole time...

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