Trainers are flawed

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omgtifb
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Re: Trainers are flawed

Post by omgtifb »

It's revealing that nobody can characterize my side of this discussion with anything other than accusations that it's pure min-maxing, "squeezing every last drop of uberness out of a character", etc.

I know it's fun to pretend that stats and character progression don't matter (oh how ironic to say that about a game such as this) but as soon as you admit that (i.e. admit reality) you must also admit that trainers are a disappointing revelation to any player who spent their precious level-up skill points on skills that could have been trained instead. That is not my opinion, it is simple fact.
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Kreador Freeaxe
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Re: Trainers are flawed

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

It is a simple fact that YOU were disappointed to discover that you'd spent precious skill points at level-up on skills that you could have purchased. It is your opinion that any new player coming to the game must feel exactly as you do (an easily verifiable erroneous opinion). When I first bought Book I and discovered the trainer for the ranged combat skills (the first weapons trainer you come across in that game), I thought, "Cool. I wonder what other trainers are out here."

Of course, I didn't come to the game as a hardcore player. I hadn't played a video game for decades until a friend at Ubisoft gave me the rebooted Might & Magic, then I found Eschalon and fell in love. I played it with a sense of wonder and discovery, not an urgent need to be the most powerful awesome pwning character imaginable.

So, you feel that trainers need to be modified. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to the game mechanic changing so that trainers can give you up to 8 levels of any skill, and the cost is equal to the level gained x 100. Then you have the choice yourself of how and when to get those skills. But removing them entirely because you felt cheated is silly.
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Incendax
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Re: Trainers are flawed

Post by Incendax »

Making effective use out of the trainers in the game certainly requires Out Of Character knowledge that you shouldn't expect of anyone on their first play through. To counter this issue, it might be best to change trainers so they give you a one time benefit.

For example, even the most skilled swordsman might come across Sonya and discover that she has a few tricks he never thought of. He pays her for her time and gains 3 Skill Points. Thats it. A one time benefit.

This would bring it more in line with discovering skill books. Certainly you could gain a bigger use out of them with Out Of Character knowledge, but it would go a long way towards avoiding bad feelings for those players that enjoy excellence or perfection in their character builds.
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ManusDei
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Re: Trainers are flawed

Post by ManusDei »

Same as Kreador Freeaxe. To me it would be too painful going to Port Kuddad butt-naked to buy the skills.
HeavyP04
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Re: Trainers are flawed

Post by HeavyP04 »

I'm weighing in with the majority here in that I don't think it's a deal-breaker. I came into Book II cold on the recommendation of a friend (after which I immediately bought Book I, but that's another story), and after getting the basics from the manual I jumped in and had to figure out the nuances all on my own. My first character was a Cleric, and he was pretty gimped. Stat distribution was FAR less than optional, I had no knowledge of what would be required/expected, and as a result I limped through the first half of the game pretty poorly. When I got to Port K and realized that there were many skill trainers, I didn't get upset or ragequit the game, I just wrote down where they were and made a mental note to plan to use them more effectively in my next playthrough. I got probably 2/3 of the way through the game before finally admitting that I had made too many poor choices to that point, and while I could probably finish out the game it would be much more trouble than it was worth. So I restarted. The second time through I was able to get the jump on raising some stats via trainer, planning when and where I would make my stat and skill upgrades, did a bit of merchant-scumming to get a book or two I wanted, and generally enjoyed it a lot more. Honestly, if I had gone in with all that knowledge I guess I could have done that on my first playthrough, but the fact remains that I enjoyed that first playthrough anyway. It was a challenge and a learning experience, just as each time I roll up another character ends up being a learning experience (I try to play very different characters every time).

It seems that your playthrough was marred because you discovered you could have done things easier (perhaps you dropped to your knees and shook your fists at the sky, cursing BW with a scream of rage while lightning flashed in the background), and I'm not discounting your opinion (well, maybe teasing just a little). The fact remains, however, that it IS your opinion, and from the discussion so far, most of the rest of the players reacted as I did, just making a note of a newly discovered feature and planning to use it more effectively on their next playthrough, then continuing on their merry way. The system probably does need to be tweaked a bit, and an NPC or note in the manual (can't remember if there is one or not) that tells of the existence of trainers without spoiling how to find them would probably be a good inclusion for Book III, but overall it seems most people like it.

Edit: My only qualm with the trainers is to hopefully have the "Pick Locks" trainer somewhere more immediately accessible in Book III. You can make a Port K run and get most of them naked at level 1, but you're not making it through to the Thief trainer without already having some points in Pick Locks and a few levels under your belt. I really didn't have much choice but to sink some of my initial points into the skill, as in the beginning you really need every gold piece you can scrape together, and there are far too many locked chests laying around to ignore that option. Even discounting robbing honest citizens, a solo dungeon-diver has to have some method of opening things he doesn't have a key for, and going through three pine cudgels to break down one door or chest just isn't the most time or cost-effective way to go.
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SpottedShroom
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Re: Trainers are flawed

Post by SpottedShroom »

HeavyP04 wrote:you're not making it through to the Thief trainer without already having some points in Pick Locks and a few levels under your belt.
This is a good point. It certainly is possible to get to the trainer without pick locks - I call the boots that give a boost to Unarmed "Boots of Butt Kicking" after the Munchkin item - but most people who want a character skilled in Pick Locks are already going to have it leveled to 8 by the time they get there. I pretty much only ever use that trainer for non-thief characters to help get the Jack of All Trades achievement. Can anyone share stories of having really used him to good effect?
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Kreador Freeaxe
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Re: Trainers are flawed

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

SpottedShroom, in Book II, there are no unarmed combat boots, just the rings. But even 1 point in unarmed combat is enough to open almost every door and chest in the game given time. No worries about equipment damage or anything else. Though sometimes I use an explosive barrel or two to speed up the process.

There is only one "chest" in the game that cannot be opened this way, and only a few doors (really they're more like gates than doors, anyway, and they are also non-pickable). BW did a great job with Eschalon making all sorts of ways to get through the various challenges in the game.
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Incendax
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Re: Trainers are flawed

Post by Incendax »

While it should not be called a deal-breaker, trainers should certainly be implemented in a way that does not require Out Of Character knowledge of a previous game to make use of. For any first time player it is unlikely they will reach Port Kudad before they gain 8 ranks in their primary skills. On subsequent playthrough there is no particular reason why you character should expect to know that those trainers exist, and it would be metagaming to use them effectively.

It goes without saying that this is just an opinion, but opinions are the only currency that exist on a forum.
bratttn
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Re: Trainers are flawed

Post by bratttn »

I agree to the fact that the trainers were handled poorly. They should train u a few levels of the skill regardless of ur skill level, or advance the skill in a different way (like it was handled in might & magic for example). They way the trainers are now in EB2 is frustrating.
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