Trainers are flawed

[omgtifb]

In my opinion the trainer concept in this game is pretty flawed. The knowledge that trainers exist, which trainers exist, where they exist, and how far up in level they can take you is gained arbitrarily after the first play-through (the most important and for the vast majority of players the only one). Knowing the "trick" of buying the first eight levels of a skill from a trainer and then reading the book to get two more is VERY powerful and changes your character's build strategy drastically.

I know that doesn't sound so bad, but what is bad about it is that so many players will only discover this too late, and it's disheartening and not fun to confront mid-game the fact that you left 10 skill points lying on the table. It's depressing to think of what your character could have been if you'd just have known this arbitrary piece of game lore which can't be known without either spoiling yourself of playing through once.

In my opinion either trainers should give 8 additional levels regardless of what level you're currently at, or, better yet, they should be removed from the game entirely and the game rebalanced to account for their absence. (Of course this is not something that can be done anymore, but it would have made for a better game IMO).

[IJBall]

...I know that doesn't sound so bad, but what is bad about it is that so many players will only discover this too late, and it's disheartening and not fun to confront mid-game the fact that you left 10 skill points lying on the table. It's depressing to think of what your character could have been if you'd just have known this arbitrary piece of game lore which can't be known without either spoiling yourself of playing through once.

In my opinion either trainers should give 8 additional levels regardless of what level you're currently at, or, better yet, they should be removed from the game entirely and the game rebalanced to account for their absence.

I feel like this is an overreaction to the problem you're articulated (and, to some degree, I think your criticism is valid).

There's a simple and obvious solution to this.

BW just needs to insert a character, with a certain string of dialogue, near the start of the game (in both Book I and Book II), that let's players know about this aspect of the game:

NPC: "Well, I've certainly heard that there are 'trainers' out there, who will improve your skills to varying levels, if you pay them for their service. There are none that I know of in this town But perhaps in other towns, you can find one of these 'trainers' to help you learn some skills, so you might want to hold on to your gold!..."

Simply do this, and I think it goes a long way to clueing newbies into the fact that there are trainers out there that you can buy Skill levels with...

[omgtifb]

That really wouldn't solve much. How would your character build and skill choices at level up change just because you know "some" skills can be purchased but don't know which and, most importantly, that there's a hard cap after which you cannot buy any skill points? Pretty much everybody who knows how trainers work and where they are will maximize their use by not taking those skills till they're bought to level eight. But without that information, I don't see how or why anybody's skill allocations would change.

Just lift the level cap on bought skills and all the frustration is removed. Regardless of current skill level, you can buy 8 increments from each trainer.

[xolotl]

Personally that doesn't bother me at all. I admit that after a couple of playthroughs (of both Book 1 and Book 2) I was sort of optimizing for the presence of trainers, but almost always I'm just using those to pump up secondary stats that I wouldn't be putting my ordinary points into, anyway. I also never bother waiting to read a skill book. If a merchant's selling it, I'll just read it then and there.

The complaint seems to be that you're somehow "missing out" by not exploiting the trainers as efficiently as possible, but the same could be said for any tactic in the game which takes a playthrough or two to learn. I don't think that it makes much sense to try and re-balance the game so that everyone's first-playthrough character is an unstoppable, perfect character. Especially given that Eschalon's whole character-building methodology is sort of specifically designed to allow you to create characters which simply aren't very effective. Eschalon doesn't hold your hand, and that's a big part of why a lot of folks like it. I remember my first Book 1 character, a mage, was really struggling for a good 2/3rds of the game, but that's part of what made it fun. I was never upset that I could have made my char better but didn't.

Plus, it's a single-player game, it's not like you're in competition with anyone else.

[omgtifb]

My post was not really aimed at "expert" players who know the score from the first game. I am trying to consider the game experience for first time players, as the game designer probably wants to do as well. 10 points in a skill is pretty huge in this game. Whether one maximizes this one aspect in, say, their weapon of choice makes a HUGE difference to the character's power by early/mid game. In that regard it is very different from learning tactics, since once learned they are worth as much as if you'd already known.

There's just no "pro" to outweigh the "con" of confronting that your character is nerfed in an important way simply because you didn't know about how trainers worked. The best one can do is say "it's not a big deal". But it's at least a bit of a bad thing regardless.

[DaveH]

My early characters are usually so broke I can't afford the trainer anyway. I need to get the most basic skills on them with skill points or not survive.

[SpottedShroom]

My early characters are usually so broke I can't afford the trainer anyway. I need to get the most basic skills on them with skill points or not survive.

Honestly, I find that the first level of a skill from a trainer is the most useful. You're saving yourself 3 skill points for 100 gold, and level 1 of several skills is very useful. For example, you can drop 300 gold in Port Kuudad for cartography, elemental, and divine.

But generally, I don't think there's a problem with trainers. There are lots of ways for people to optimize characters in different games that aren't obvious until the second (or more) play through.

[Schism]

My early characters are usually so broke I can't afford the trainer anyway. I need to get the most basic skills on them with skill points or not survive.

Honestly, I find that the first level of a skill from a trainer is the most useful. You're saving yourself 3 skill points for 100 gold, and level 1 of several skills is very useful. For example, you can drop 300 gold in Port Kuudad for cartography, elemental, and divine.
<snip>

Would add a bit of challenge and be a bit more balanced if trainers 'only' trained that first point , the big savings you mention SpottedShroom .

Simply being able to forage enough coin to buy the Port available skills to 8 and easily check merchants periodically for the books needed for the 10 skill is quite an easy mode method to build a character .

Its already been posted that a lvl 1 character can get the writ and gain entry into town . I've done it at lvl 2 with a 10 hide in shadows skill .

~S~

[sirdilznik]

I understand the issue and I agree that having the knowledge that there are trainers in the game, how they work, and even maybe where they are, as well as the knowledge of the existence skill books would certainly help people make the optimal build of the character they choose. However to me this speaks volumes on a different issue altogether.

Now I'm not here to tell you how to play your character, either in this RPG or any RPG (or any game for that matter). If you like to try to make your character as powerful as humanly possible so you can be playing essentially a demi-god, that's your prerogative. If it bothers people to discover that "oh my god my character isn't as absolutely optimized as he/she could have been if I had done things this way from the start" that's their deal and I'm not saying that's right or wrong.

Personally the quest to build the "uber-character", and I have gone down that road before, has always taken some of the fun out of games for me. Some of the most fun I've ever had playing RPGs, and this includes video games as well as going all the way back to pencil & paper RPGs, was with seriously flawed characters. Having a flawed character creates interesting challenges and role playing opportunities. Finding ways around your weaknesses or dealing with with the repercussions of those weaknesses or shortcomings for me makes games more interesting than playing the ultimate killing machine.

When I play I like to pick a theme or concept for my character and attempt to follow that theme regardless of how well or poorly it works out. When opportunities present themselves or slip away during the game I roll with the punches.

If anything I wish there were a random seed at the very beginning of the game immediately after character creation that would determine a very limited number of random skill books in the game (not enough to have one of each) and that would randomly pick the skill trainers that would appear in the game, again not all of them would be present in any given game, maybe even have them appear in different places. This would remove the ability to remember where all the skill trainers are after your first play through and plan ahead your second character so as to make him/her "optimal".

[Kreador Freeaxe]

I'm with Sir Dilznik for the most part. I tried creating a character with foraging and mercantile, ran to Port K (grabbing the Writ on the way), and foraged and sold my way to every available skill at level 10 with a level 2 character. I hated it. After the exciting rush to Port K, everything became a bore. And, level 10 of the various combat skills, while it does give you the Feats, really doesn't make you a very powerful character yet. To use all those feats you have to lug around (and swap mid-battle) half-a-dozen different weapons. Yeah, you can save yourself 12 skill points (or 9, if it's your initial class skill), by getting a weapon from the trainer, but it's more a pain than a boon. Just decide what kind of character you want to build and build it. The fun is in figuring out how to play the game with the build you've designed.

I just did a new build--a cleric (though not a very nice one). I almost never used a weapon, except thrown weapons and unarmed combat early on to get through locked doors or sealed barrels or explode powder kegs, since Divination has no physically damaging spell until you get to Mystic Hammer (though it is a very nice spell). If I found a skill book, I read it, but the only training I bought was alchemy and foraging (and I'd taken some foraging early on before the trainer, just to make affording spell scrolls easier). I finished the game at level 22 with huge piles of money and a bunch of stuff in bags back on Picaroon that I hadn't been able to sell. I really loved my Resistant Ancient Dragon Skin Skull Cap +3, too.

[omgtifb]

Sorry folks, not sold. This game relies heavily on the fun factor of seeing that green plus sign light up, and carefully considering how to spend those precious three skill points. Merrily doing this for your first 5 or 10 character levels and then getting to Port K and finding that trainers there could have given you many of those skill points for the cost of a half hour worth of foraging is simply a kick to the nuts. It's really not fun any way you slice it.

If you consciously choose to avoid trainers or not care, that is one thing. But not knowing and suffering the consequences of that is another matter entirely.

[xolotl]

"Kick to the nuts?" "Suffering the consequences?" I guess we're going to have to just chalk this one up to a massive difference of opinion. To me (and to many others), the trainers are just another way you could further optimize your character. The game makes it entirely possible to create very powerful characters with absolutely no trainer optimization at all - this is simply not something that a player needs to be aware of to play the game, or even to create demigod-like characters. Then, I've never felt that my enjoyment of a game depends on my being able to exploit every last hidden bit of the game on the first playthrough, so it's probably just a matter of taste. I'll say no more...

[omgtifb]

I think it's difficult for y'all to see this from the perspective of a first-time player. It is an important perspective though.

They don't know whether their character is nerfed by having traded precious skill points for what turns out to be a few hundred gold. But they do know that that is exactly the trade they unwittingly made before they met Joe the Sword Trainer.

I am talking about the emotional response, the effect on the "fun factor", when the player realizes that the choices they've made, and maybe agonized over, were really bad. Maybe they created a sword/shield guy, and spent some time crunching some numbers to try to determine which was a better skill allocation, sword or shield? Maybe they chose sword. Anybody who does not acknowledge that they're in for a disappointing and unfun revelation as soon as they meet the sword trainer is simply denying reality.

[CrazyBernie]

I think it's difficult for y'all to see this from the perspective of a first-time player. It is an important perspective though.

Huh? So you're saying that none of us were ever first time players? How is that even possible? We've all had that perspective, and the effect is different for everyone. And if you're talking about RPG newbies in general... this game wasn't created for them.

Anybody who does not acknowledge that they're in for a disappointing and unfun revelation as soon as they meet the sword trainer is simply denying reality.

That is entirely an opinion of yours, which you're welcome to. When I first played Book I and found out that I could have had five levels in the Sword skill... I wasn't all depressed and disappointed. I was too busy playing the game... a mental note was made and I moved on.

Just like you're not sold on the "it's good enough" factor, some of us aren't sold on the "you must know in advance how to make your character uber." You can be just as disappointed with a poor character build (moreso, in fact) as you can in finding out you could have paid trainers to boost your skills. Personally, if I build a character, I'm going to start out with the skills I want... not hold out and waste time farming for gold just to "get ahead." I use the trainers to increase or add skills that I hadn't paid as much attention to at the beginning.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of nixing/modifying the trainers... I've actually made a similar suggestion to yours. I just don't agree with your reasoning for it.

[sirdilznik]

I am talking about the emotional response, the effect on the "fun factor", when the player realizes that the choices they've made, and maybe agonized over, were really bad. Maybe they created a sword/shield guy, and spent some time crunching some numbers to try to determine which was a better skill allocation, sword or shield? Maybe they chose sword. Anybody who does not acknowledge that they're in for a disappointing and unfun revelation as soon as they meet the sword trainer is simply denying reality.

The first character I played used an axe, a shield, and heavy armor. The further I got into the game the more I realized that heavy armor just doesn't seem much, if at all, more protective than light armor which weighs half as much. Furthermore I came to the realization that investing in anything beyond 1 skill point in heavy armor wasn't exactly increasing my protection much, the effect was negligible at best, mind you this is after already having spent many skill points on heavy armor skill. While from a game balance standpoint I don't think that's right, it didn't really make the game any less fun for me and in fact I went ahead and spent a few more skill points on heavy armor skill as I went along knowing full well that I was for the most part "wasting" those skill points. Why? Because I went into that game wanting to play a heavily armored warrior, a tank if you will, and that's what I was going to do. It just seemed like a wise warrior would spend time learning how to best maneuver and most efficiently make use of his armor whether in terms of game mechanics upgrading that skill actually has that effect to any sort of noticeable level or not.

Also I invested a couple of skill points in cartography and a couple in repair because I didn't want my character getting lost and I felt it would be wise for my character to be able to care for and maintain his arms and armor. Later in the game I reached places where I could buy those skills and looking back at it, I could have saved myself some skill points by having purchased those skills instead of learning them when leveling. Didn't bother me one bit. In fact if I had it to do all over again with that same character I probably would do it the same way. I'm just much more into having fun by playing my character as I see fit and following a path that I think would make sense for him, adding in little extra imaginary role playing bits and pieces into the game from my own twisted mind, than making sure I take advantage of every single trick of the trade to make sure I squeeze every last drop of optimization out of the system I can.