Balance and Rangers

Here's where all things related to Book II are being discussed!
Post Reply
User avatar
Emelio Lizardo
Fellowcraft Apprentice
Posts: 43
Joined: April 17th, 2013, 10:11 am

Balance and Rangers

Post by Emelio Lizardo » October 30th, 2013, 6:00 am

What I'm reading so far in the comments here and other sites is that magic use trumps everything. Which isn't necessarily bad, but the other classes just can't compete or even fair well without significant magic use.

Skills are a great idea but they're overwhelmed by parallel spell abilities quickly.

The Ranger class is in particular trouble as the costs of his primary weapons system is unsustainable.

Arrows are throwaways and should be cheap and ubiquitous. I mean that a standard arrow should sell for 100 to the gold piece.

Study of a particular area should create costs for study in unrelated areas particularly at the higher levels.

To achieve some balance, skills should be in some way better than magic and more easily accessible, especially through practical use.

Morgan Terror
Steward
Posts: 65
Joined: August 12th, 2012, 6:13 am

Re: Balance and Rangers

Post by Morgan Terror » October 30th, 2013, 9:37 am

Rangers are only in trouble for as long as you're in the start of the game. Once you get your weapon feat, and therefore a guaranteed hit, arrows are never a problem. Besides, a good ranger build well have really high accuracy anyway. Arrows are only a problem in the stage of the game where you haven't got access to that many shops and didn't find the wolfenwood ranger yet.

I do agree that mages are quite OP though, but that seems to be a problem in all RPG's. Most of the logic says that it's balanced out by being really poor early game, but eh.

User avatar
SpottedShroom
Captain Magnate
Captain Magnate
Posts: 1371
Joined: June 4th, 2010, 6:18 pm

Re: Balance and Rangers

Post by SpottedShroom » October 30th, 2013, 6:40 pm

I disagree. Played optimally, bow fighter is the most effective character build. If you rely on spells to do damage, you have a hard cap on damage per attack, which is casting a third-tier spell at level 6. Non-spellcasters can boost their damage as high as they like by increasing their weapon skill and/or associated ability score.

It's true that arrow supply is an issue early in the game, but by mid-game you should have enough money to afford them and be hitting enough/doing enough damage not to run out very fast. Mages' attacks are limited by MP, which does regenerate for free, but that generally takes quite a while. A mid-level or high-level ranger can often take part in multiple difficult fights in a row without needing to rest, which a mage can't.

The ability to replace certain skills with spells - Lore, Pick Lock, Skullduggery, Cartography, Hide/Move Silently (with Invisibility), Spot Hidden (with Supernova) is very, very helpful, and I could see an argument for it being unbalanced. But in pure combat terms, it's just not the case.

User avatar
Emelio Lizardo
Fellowcraft Apprentice
Posts: 43
Joined: April 17th, 2013, 10:11 am

Re: Balance and Rangers

Post by Emelio Lizardo » October 31st, 2013, 7:09 pm

In pure combat terms you could be correct. What I'm looking at is the comparable logistics.

The Mage/Healer is completely self contained and self supplied, and can project power at some distance. His only cost is time to recharge.

In contrast, the ranger (or any ranged attack fighter) has to deal with supply sourcing and ammo weight. After a while, the drudgery of dealing with materials pushes you to magic.

I don't know that there is a solution, magic is (and should be) fun. Certainly the issue of arrows for low level arrow chuckers cries out for adjustment, at least the suggested price reduction.

And in that vein, food should be cheaper and there could be trainers for many more skills.

Morgan Terror
Steward
Posts: 65
Joined: August 12th, 2012, 6:13 am

Re: Balance and Rangers

Post by Morgan Terror » November 1st, 2013, 5:46 am

In terms of throwing weapons i'd agree. Rangers, no. They work just fine. The only real requirement is gearing the rest of your build towards it, and proper resource management. I do tend to reinforce them with some magic after a while, but i really don't see this as a problem. All characters can benefit from it in some way. They're not meant to stick to the skils your class says you should have simply out of tradition. Sticking to that anyway is more of a self-imposed challenge than anything.

Food is also fine. You can finish the game without ever buying any food if you've got something like 3 foraging, and there's a trainer for that. I never start with foraging because you've always got enough food to make it to the trainer, which is also around the point where you'll be getting some spider legs. As for the trainers, i dunno. It could be a good idea. Whatever the case, i've heard the 3rd game will have more of them anyway.

User avatar
Emelio Lizardo
Fellowcraft Apprentice
Posts: 43
Joined: April 17th, 2013, 10:11 am

Re: Balance and Rangers

Post by Emelio Lizardo » November 1st, 2013, 11:48 am

Thinking of foraging, maybe arrows should be something that can be foraged for.

When bread is more expensive than gems I begin to lose my suspension of disbelief.

Seriously, how many pounds of gold should a loaf of bread cost?

Morgan Terror
Steward
Posts: 65
Joined: August 12th, 2012, 6:13 am

Re: Balance and Rangers

Post by Morgan Terror » November 1st, 2013, 4:33 pm

Ah, that IS a point. Realistic prices from item to item is something i haven't really been wathcing. There's something to be said for game balance, of course.

User avatar
Emelio Lizardo
Fellowcraft Apprentice
Posts: 43
Joined: April 17th, 2013, 10:11 am

Re: Balance and Rangers

Post by Emelio Lizardo » November 6th, 2013, 9:41 am

If you start from rational constraints, game balance should be easier to achieve.

User avatar
Kreador Freeaxe
Major General
Major General
Posts: 2378
Joined: April 26th, 2008, 3:44 pm

Re: Balance and Rangers

Post by Kreador Freeaxe » November 7th, 2013, 8:30 pm

Emelio Lizardo wrote:If you start from rational constraints, game balance should be easier to achieve.
Rational constraints and enjoyable game balance are not at all in tune with each other in most cases.

Every player will have her or his own point where "realism" becomes make-work and gets in the way of actually playing.
---

Kill 'em all, let the sysadmin sort 'em out.

jimsnyder
Pledge
Posts: 3
Joined: September 4th, 2014, 9:43 am
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Balance and Rangers

Post by jimsnyder » September 4th, 2014, 12:36 pm

Emelio Lizardo wrote:In contrast, the ranger (or any ranged attack fighter) has to deal with supply sourcing and ammo weight. After a while, the drudgery of dealing with materials pushes you to magic.
I haven't found playing a bow using character to be a drudgery at all. An archer is so easy to play that an organized player never has any problems. I actually look at the next planned foray to determine how many arrows to pack, and at 0.1 per arrow, even their weight never is an issue.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests