Obama or McCain?

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Obama or McCain?

Obama
22
58%
McCain
5
13%
Neither
11
29%
 
Total votes: 38

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Mongolian
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Mongolian »

Czechoslovakia is a country? why would you need to know that if your president and brag about being overseas every year? I'm totally voting for McCain because I like the way life is going and want a 3rd Bush term worse x10.
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Necromis »

In light of the recent events in Georgia I have to point out something that I am sure is obvious to most. The two candidates have shown their positions, strengths, and weaknesses with their responses to Russia's military invasion of this democratic country. Obama was weak from the start and slowly turned to a stronger position later in time. McCain was straight forward and tough on Russia right from the start. This shows that Obama, despite his photo op tour with world leaders, has a very weak hand when dealing with forgien affairs. It also shows that McCain is ready to handle situations like this. Even the current administration was a little weak to start and has moved towards exactly what McCain said from day one. This simply shows that one candidate has too little experience in dealing with forgien affairs.
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

Necromis wrote:This simply shows that one candidate has too little experience in dealing with forgien affairs.
I think it shows that one candidate is ready to rule with an iron fist and a finger on the button (McCain) while the other is more cautious about throwing the US into a very troubling situation with the world's 2nd largest nuclear power.

While this situation confirms with you that McCain is the better candidate, it has confirmed with me that McCain is a very dangerous and bad choice for president.

Ah, the political debate continues! :D Let's hope this doesn't get into religion or this thread may never end!! :lol:
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Necromis »

BW, McCain's response was not hair trigger military response. It was strong and balanced. Maybe you didn't read it. Nothing within his statement was warmongering. I have quoted below.
The United States and our allies should continue efforts to bring a resolution before the UN Security Council condemning Russian aggression, noting the withdrawal of Georgian troops from South Ossetia, and calling for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgian territory. We should move ahead with the resolution despite Russian veto threats, and submit Russia to the court of world public opinion.
NATO's North Atlantic Council should convene in emergency session to demand a ceasefire and begin discussions on both the deployment of an international peacekeeping force to South Ossetia and the implications for NATO's future relationship with Russia, a Partnership for Peace nation. NATO's decision to withhold a Membership Action Plan for Georgia might have been viewed as a green light by Russia for its attacks on Georgia, and I urge the NATO allies to revisit the decision.

The Secretary of State should begin high-level diplomacy, including visiting Europe, to establish a common Euro-Atlantic position aimed at ending the war and supporting the independence of Georgia. With the same aim, the U.S. should coordinate with our partners in Germany, France, and Britain, to seek an emergency meeting of the G-7 foreign ministers to discuss the current crisis. The visit of French President Sarkozy to Moscow this week is a welcome expression of transatlantic activism.

Working with allied partners, the U.S. should immediately consult with the Ukrainian government and other concerned countries on steps to secure their continued independence. This is particularly important as a number of Russian Black Sea fleet vessels currently in Georgian territorial waters are stationed at Russia's base in the Ukrainian Crimea.
May I ask how you can get hair trigger military out of this? Point blank, Russia invaded another country and the UN and NATO should be involved. The US should be supporting our allies in the area to prevent something similar from happening. Russia is still trying to be the USSR/Old Russian Empire. Being allies with a country means defending them to the best of your ability. Everyone knows, including McCain, that the US cannot go against Russia in a military battle. First we currently are way to weak because of military cutbacks, and second it is a no win situation.

Obama's "can't we all just get along" attitude and desire to further weak the US military is the wrong path and will only lead to more problems than solutions. He talks about getting with Russia to decrease the Nuclear capabilities of both counties, and ignores the fact that they are currently working on developing NEW nuclear weapons/missiles.

You have to understand the difference between being strong on defense and warmongering. You must always be able to match your advisary with the same, if not better military power and technology. If Russia, China...etc are developing missle defense, we should be developing it. If they develope space based weapons systems, we should be as well. It is not a desire to have to, or want to use these weapons, it is only to be able to defend this country on an equal, if not better, footing.

If you put this on a personal level if a person broke into your home carrying a gun and all you had was knife, you lose. If you both have guns you at least have the chance to defend yourself and live through the attack.

On a side note, it looks like the DNC is going to get pretty interesting this year as they have agreed to put Hilliary Clinton on the ballot. Some Clinton supporters are indicating that they will be voting for her in the delegate role call regardless of her pushing for a *unified* party. There is even the potential that she could be voted in as the Democrats Presidential Nominee. I personally hope that does not happen for the sake of the country as too many African-Americans would see that as stealing the nomination away from Obama. Which could cause a large out break of violence and riots.
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by zarvok »

But the speech you quoted indicates McCain wants Georgia in NATO. This would automatically commit US troops to defend Georgia against any invasion from Russia or anyone else. Isn't that the definition of a hair trigger? Didn't we learn our lesson about entangling military alliances from world events last century?
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by BasiliskWrangler »

Necromis wrote:If you both have guns you at least have the chance to defend yourself and live through the attack.
Ah yes, the Mexican Standoff :D

I do fully respect everyone's political opinions, and I think everyone has valid points. However, I feel that the US needs a break from Bush's foreign and domestic policies. McCain doesn't appear to have a plan for getting us off this path.
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Evnissyen »

And by the way, Necromis: Georgia began this whole incident by invading South Ossetia. Russia responded in the usual iron-fist manner that it uses to deal with troublemakers. Saashkavili is the warmonger, not Russia. Please get your facts straight before you post your rants.
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Necromis »

How can you *invade* your own country? South Ossetia is a province of Georgia. So Georgia did not invade anywhere. There was a rebel uprising, instigated by the Russians, and they sent troops in response. If a militant group, like the compound down in Waco, TX, were to make a military uprising in the US and our President sent troops in response would you say that we invaded Texas???? Foolish.

Additionally, Georgia is our ally already which means we are here to help defend that country. So being in NATO does nothing to change that. However, the US and Russia do not want to go head to head militarily, it would be foolish for both sides.


What is wrong with forgien policy? Last time I checked it was a good idea to help defend Democratic countries. It is also a good idea to be going after extremists. Maybe I am wrong. Mabye we should just put our heads in the sand and hope that everything will turn out all right. Maybe we should take Obama's stand and tell everyone to just "get along."
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Evnissyen »

Russia is also an ally. Or... they're supposed to be. (They're also the second largest exporter of oil in the world.) Certainly, placing missiles bases in Poland and the Czech Republic doesn't help if you want stable relations with Russia.

South Ossetia is about as much Georgian territory as Georgia was Soviet territory before the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Ossetians declared their independence from Georgia by a 99% vote at the end of 2006, even though their territory is 'technically' part of Georgia. Don't you respect the wishes of the South Ossetians to be a free people? Apparently Georgia doesn't.

There is no actual support for your claim that South Ossetians had staged any significant military disruption warranting the invasion. Honestly, the reporting on the precise origins of this whole fiasco seems rather muddled, probably making that sort of misinterpretation (as well as opportunistic propaganda) inevitable. And if you're listening to what the White House says, well, you should start listening to somebody less biased. What I have been able to glean is that Saakashvili -- whom I'm not unsympathetic toward -- seems to have been influenced by nationalistic sentiment in his country to take a hard stance toward the Ossetians. He tried reasserting influence over South Ossetia in late 2004, not too successfully.

So, of course it's good to encourage fledgling liberalized republics, and perhaps this should include South Ossetia. You should also know whom you're your antagonizing before doing so. This is just smart foreign policy. Don't goad the Russian Bear. JFK tried that. It led to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Belligerent behavior (as well as bellicose talk) often leads to unpleasant consequences. This is something I wish "Senator Hot-Head" would understand.
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Necromis »

I can understand some of your thoughts, and can say that I am not getting my information from the White House. I am looking at all the news outlets.

Yes, Russia is an ally to an extent. However, if you bring this down to a more personally level, if you have two close friends, and one attacks the other you should support the one that you think is morally right. In this case that is Georgia over Russia.

The south voted to seperate from the North before the US Civil War. That didn't make the North wrong for what they did. If a group of people want to be a part of a different country, then they should move to that country.
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Evnissyen »

What? So Georgians should move to France?

The Ossetians in South Ossetia don't want to be Russians. They want to be a free people. Like the Georgians.
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Necromis »

where do you get your facts? 90% of them are Russians, and were issued Russian passports by Russia so that Russia would have the *right* to come in and defend them as Russian citizens. If they want to be part of Russia then they need to simply pack up and move. If I wanted to be part of Canada then I would need to get off my butt and move up to Canada and learn to say "aye.". :wink:
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Evnissyen »

I get my facts from the Boston Globe, the NY Times, Wikipedia (an amazing resource) and Internet searches. Right now I've just started reading a book on the Caucasus, The Ghost of Freedom, by Charles King, just published this year. Where do you get your facts?

First... 90% of the people in South Ossetia are not Russian. According to this article, from Wikipedia (look under Demographics), the population according to the last census that was able to be conducted reflects a region comprising 66.2% Ossetians, 29% Georgians, and 4.8% "others". These "others" undoubtedly include those who identify themselves as Russians who, of course, are likely to possess dual citizenship. According to the Wikipedia article: an approximated 70% of the entire South Ossetian population (including those "others") had dual citizenship with Russia by the time that war broke out. (I suspect this figure probably comes from Russian sources, considering the difficulty that census-takers alone have faced in that region... you can draw your own conclusion from this if it happens to be the case.)

Of course: any attempt by the South Ossetians to build a positive relationship with Russia and even to seek dual citizenship with Russia (and in fact, the neighboring region of North Ossetia is itself part of Russia) is understandable for people who're faced with an opponent more powerful than themselves, and therefore desire protection in case of invasion.

I've heard nothing about the Russian population being disturbed about South Ossetian independence. In fact, I believe Russia favors their independence. The only ones who seem to have a problem with it are the Georgian nationalists. (View this map of Georgian occupied areas in the region.)

You might also be interested in this ethnic map of the Caucasus region. Look complicated? You bet it is. Of course, colorful maps don't tell the stories, they only give a simple impression.

Oh, and finally: You might be interested in a couple of recent, good articles from the OpEd pages of the NYTimes. These two are from Wednesday. One is by Thomas Friedman: "What did we expect?", and the other is by Mikhail Gorbachev himself: "Russia Never Wanted a War". (Sorry that I wasn't able to find a 2nd party source for the latter article. Maybe there is one now, but I haven't bothered to check since Wednesday. So... they might make you register to read it, although sometimes you can read their Op-Eds online without registering. Still... registering costs nothing and you don't even have to agree to receive emails, and it's a good site to register at.) Now... Obviously Gorbachev's view is biased, but Americans haven't been hearing very much from the Russian perspective.

As I've said before: I'm not unsympathetic with Mikheil Saakashvili. It's Georgian nationalism (not to be confused with 'patriotism') that seems to be the operative problem, here, and which has tarnished the man's record as a reformer.
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Necromis »

ok, so I was off by a small fraction. So it is 70% not 90%. Of course Russia wants their independance. They want to bring them into the Russian statehood. Russia is of course saying that they didn't *want* to invade Georgia. Whatelse are they going to say in light of world opinion.

Secondly, again their wanting independance from the country as a whole does not give them the right to just split off. Again if it were that easy we would not have had the Civil War here in the US. Georgia cannot *invade* it's own country. It can, however, respond to militants launching rockets against civilian and military structures. Which is what they did. I guess what is right and common sense just don't come into play for some people.
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Re: Obama or McCain?

Post by Evnissyen »

20% is not a small fraction to be off by... and you said they were Russians, which is incorrect.

Why can't they have liberty if they want it? If it makes the Ossetians feel better if they possess autonomy, then why not allow the 66+% Ossetians their own nation? This is like saying that Georgia should have remained a part of Russia instead of declaring their independence in 1991... and that any Georgian who didn't like being Russian should've moved to Sweden, or France, or some other nation where social liberties are relatively generous, instead of working to make life in their own nation better. How can you support Georgian autonomy but not Ossetian autonomy? Randy Scheunemann might speak for McCain's foreign policy, but I'm sure he doesn't speak for you.

You will have to give me evidence of Ossetian aggression toward Georgia. The McCain campaign and the White House naturally want us to believe that the Ossetians started it (if, of course, the "Russia started it" tactic isn't convincing enough). So does our "ally" Georgia.
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