RPG game design questions

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MyGameCompany
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RPG game design questions

Post by MyGameCompany »

Hi gang,

I've decided to create a RPG for my next game - the games by Basilisk and Spiderweb have convinced me to give it a go! It will be isometric and turn-based, and right now I'm leaning toward a party vs a single character.

Since you're all RPG fans, I've got some ideas that I'd like to run past you.

MOVEMENT

I like the way game movement is done in Eschalon vs Avadon. The constant clicking and manual scrolling in Avadon drives me nuts. I like the movement arrow that Eschalon uses, and how you can hold down the left mouse button to continue walking. For my game, I'm thinking I would have a mode where the player would control the movement of the party leader, and the rest of the party would follow along behind (maybe you could rearrange the list of party members to specify a marching order). You could toggle off that mode during combat, or if you want to send a party member to scout ahead, cover room exits, etc. Does that sound reasonable?

CHOOSING CHARACTER ACTIONS

One of the things I dislike about Spiderweb's UI layout is how the row of icons on the bottom (quick use items, attack modes, etc) changes based on which character is selected. I thought about adding the icons to the party character portraits, but that takes up too much real estate.

A possible alternative that occurred to me was to use radial menus. Players could right-click or perhaps left-click and hold for 1/2 second or so, and a radial menu would appear. Maybe radial menus appear automatically when you left click on enemies during combat. A radial menu on a PC might have options for inventory, stats, choose attack, etc. A menu for a NPC might have options for talk, trade, attack (or multiple attack options, based on the current selected party character), etc. A menu for a door might have options for open, close, bash, listen, spike/seal, pick lock, etc. You get the idea...

I've seen radial menus used in other games to great effect, so I'm thinking that might be a reasonable solution here. What do you think?

DIALOGUE

I could easily make it so just the party leader or current selected party member participates in discussions. But I think it would be fun to provide different dialogue options when different party members are present. And realistically, there's no reason everyone in the party can't participate in the conversation. What do you think if I used a dialogue presentation like Eschalon, but each response could have a character portrait next to it to indicate who would be replying to the NPC? I think that might be reasonable...

Thanks for your feedback!
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Re: RPG game design questions

Post by Painted Lady »

One of the things that makes Eschalon work so well is the fact that it is single player. There is inherent design tension in a turn-based game when you have a party. All the members have to act as one unless you are in combat. Maybe the smooth play and lack of combat-mode is one of the things I like about Eschalon.

While you are designing the game mechanics you probably ought to be including the iPad in your thinking. There doesn't seem to be any doubt that SpiderWeb is beyond delighted that their games could be ported to IOS. He has sold so many games on that platform that he now considers it as important to his company as the Mac and the PC are. Just a thought.....
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Re: RPG game design questions

Post by SpottedShroom »

MyGameCompany wrote: MOVEMENT

I like the way game movement is done in Eschalon vs Avadon. The constant clicking and manual scrolling in Avadon drives me nuts. I like the movement arrow that Eschalon uses, and how you can hold down the left mouse button to continue walking. For my game, I'm thinking I would have a mode where the player would control the movement of the party leader, and the rest of the party would follow along behind (maybe you could rearrange the list of party members to specify a marching order). You could toggle off that mode during combat, or if you want to send a party member to scout ahead, cover room exits, etc. Does that sound reasonable?
You might want to look at the party system from Ultima 6. Your party follows behind you (though you can't change the order - ugh) except in combat or when you go into "solo mode" and control just one character at a time. In combat, every character but the PC fights automatically according to their assigned role - front, ranged, flank, etc. - unless you select manual, which lets you control each one.
DIALOGUE

I could easily make it so just the party leader or current selected party member participates in discussions. But I think it would be fun to provide different dialogue options when different party members are present. And realistically, there's no reason everyone in the party can't participate in the conversation. What do you think if I used a dialogue presentation like Eschalon, but each response could have a character portrait next to it to indicate who would be replying to the NPC? I think that might be reasonable...
That would be interesting, particularly if the different options had more than just a cosmetic effect on the game. You might want to bring a diplomatic/charismatic character on particular missions in favor of someone with better combat abilities, for instance. I'm also a big fan of the Fallout-style dialog options that have specific ability requirements.

Oh, and please use cross-platform development tools so us poor Linux users can play your game.
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Re: RPG game design questions

Post by Dragonlady »

Like Eschalon would be great, and I suggest being able to solo or have a group. Talking y\to your team mates is nice but it takes a lot of thinking to come up with different things to say in different situations. Saying the same thing over and over again gets boring quickly. I mean I get really annoyed at one Paladin npc traveling with my character that says "I fight for Helm!" over and over. Really funny when I'm trying to sneak up on someone and there he goes again with the mouth. Good thing the enemy has deaf ears! :lol:

As most everyone here knows I'm playing Baldur's Gate Enhanced version and they have some conversation. Traveling by point one spot and character moves there on its own, stopping for enemies spotted, etc. is a good thing. Or holding down the mouse button not so much.

The group method, you can click and hold mouse over team mate and 'push' him up or down the line to be in different position is fun. And being able to tell them what to do in battles is nice too. I suppose you could have set patterns and just push one button and sit back and watch each round as it goes. I haven't done that in BGE, I like to micromanage stuff. :)

Be sure to have female or male choices as character.
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Re: RPG game design questions

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Painted Lady wrote:One of the things that makes Eschalon work so well is the fact that it is single player. There is inherent design tension in a turn-based game when you have a party. All the members have to act as one unless you are in combat. Maybe the smooth play and lack of combat-mode is one of the things I like about Eschalon.
Same here. But I also like party-based games, because having a party filled with specialized characters opens up a lot of additional possibilities for battle tactics and strategies. So I'm trying to figure out a way to have a party of characters, but still keep some of the smooth play that I like about Eschalon.

With a party, you definitely have to provide a way to allow the party members to function independently. I can think of cases besides combat where I would want party members to be able to work on their own, like taking a single stealthy rogue/ranger to scout ahead of the party, covering multiple exits from a room, solving puzzles that require the participation of multiple party members to get past an obstacle (e.g., one member uses a winch to raise a portcullis, while other members jam it to keep it open), etc. So that requires me to provide some way to turn on/off the mode that lets party members move/act as one.

A single player instead of a party definitely simplifies the game. Maybe once I get into the design/implementation a little more, I may decide to switch to a single character. My story will work with either a single character or a party. But for now, I'm going to keep the party and see if I can make it work the way I want.
Painted Lady wrote:While you are designing the game mechanics you probably ought to be including the iPad in your thinking. There doesn't seem to be any doubt that SpiderWeb is beyond delighted that their games could be ported to IOS. He has sold so many games on that platform that he now considers it as important to his company as the Mac and the PC are. Just a thought.....
Good point. Thanks! I guess for that reason, radial menus shouldn't be tied to a right-click event. They would either have to key off a left-click event (equivalent to touching the object on an iPad), or I would need to provide an alternative way to get to the functions on the radial menu (which would kind of defeat the point of having them).
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Re: RPG game design questions

Post by MyGameCompany »

SpottedShroom wrote:You might want to look at the party system from Ultima 6. Your party follows behind you (though you can't change the order - ugh) except in combat or when you go into "solo mode" and control just one character at a time. In combat, every character but the PC fights automatically according to their assigned role - front, ranged, flank, etc. - unless you select manual, which lets you control each one.
Thanks for the tip! I hadn't thought about assigning roles and letting party members fight automatically. I'll have to take a look at Ultima 6 (never played it) and think about how that will work with the kinds of combat scenarios I'm envisioning for my game. There may be a way to automate some of the combat, for players that don't want to necessarily control every character manually.
That would be interesting, particularly if the different options had more than just a cosmetic effect on the game. You might want to bring a diplomatic/charismatic character on particular missions in favor of someone with better combat abilities, for instance. I'm also a big fan of the Fallout-style dialog options that have specific ability requirements.
I'm envisioning a fairly detailed dialogue system. The choices would be precanned, but the choices you decide to make will definitely influence the game. Charisma is one of the attributes you'll be able to develop, and one of my character classes will have the Diplomacy skill, which you can also develop. This will unlock additional choices on the dialogue screens. I plan to allow players to converse with enemies, so you can try to talk your way out of a situation instead of automatically fighting - you can also try to initiate a conversation during combat, so you can try to give up if you're badly outmatched or try to convince a badly beaten enemy to surrender rather than fight to the death.

My game will also have 5-6 major races, and there are some tensions between some of the races. Having a party member of a particular race may show/hide additional options on a dialogue screen, especially if you're talking to someone of that same race (their presence in the party may open doors for you) or a race that is hostile to them (in which case their presence may close some doors to you). I'm hoping that will greatly enhance the game's replay value - you can replay the game, recruit different party members along your travels, and have a very different gameplay experience.
Oh, and please use cross-platform development tools so us poor Linux users can play your game.
Always! All of my games are cross-platform and run on Linux, and I have no plans to change that. :D
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Re: RPG game design questions

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Dragonlady wrote:Like Eschalon would be great, and I suggest being able to solo or have a group. Talking y\to your team mates is nice but it takes a lot of thinking to come up with different things to say in different situations. Saying the same thing over and over again gets boring quickly. I mean I get really annoyed at one Paladin npc traveling with my character that says "I fight for Helm!" over and over. Really funny when I'm trying to sneak up on someone and there he goes again with the mouth. Good thing the enemy has deaf ears! :lol:
Agreed! One thing I liked about the scripting in Avadon was how certain characters automatically chimed in with meaningful dialogue when you came to a specific place or talked to a specific character. I'd like to do some of that myself.

I like the idea of being able to talk to your own party members, but like you say, most of the time they may have nothing to say. But I can see situations where talking with a party member might be valuable, like when you travel through their homeland or with other people of their race. And when you come to a particular obstacle/puzzle, maybe talking to other party members could provide some clues/insight as to how to solve it (as sort of a built-in, easy-to-use help system).
As most everyone here knows I'm playing Baldur's Gate Enhanced version and they have some conversation. Traveling by point one spot and character moves there on its own, stopping for enemies spotted, etc. is a good thing. Or holding down the mouse button not so much.

The group method, you can click and hold mouse over team mate and 'push' him up or down the line to be in different position is fun. And being able to tell them what to do in battles is nice too. I suppose you could have set patterns and just push one button and sit back and watch each round as it goes. I haven't done that in BGE, I like to micromanage stuff. :)
Me too! So you like the movement style where you click and let the character auto-walk to that location. Interesting. I can see how that would probably work better on a laptop. But I like Eschalon's movement system better. I'll have to see if there's a way I can provide both movement styles.
Be sure to have female or male choices as character.
Way ahead of you! :wink:
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Re: RPG game design questions

Post by Dragonlady »

MyGameCompany wrote:
Dragonlady wrote:
Be sure to have female or male choices as character.
Way ahead of you! :wink:
:lol: Good.

It's one of my pet peeves. For years it was male only characters. Now, though, many companies are beginning to see we females have $ to spend too and want to play a female adventuress! :D
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Re: RPG game design questions

Post by Randomizer »

If you like the Avadon interaction with your character it gets better in Avadon 2 where their class knowledge appears at certain places.

You aren't going to please everyone with the debates over single character versus party. linear versus open world, .... Spiderweb Software had for Blades of Avernum long debates by the scenario designers over what to make.
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Re: RPG game design questions

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Randomizer wrote:You aren't going to please everyone with the debates over single character versus party. linear versus open world, .... Spiderweb Software had for Blades of Avernum long debates by the scenario designers over what to make.
True. First and foremost, I will make a game that I myself am happy with and enjoy playing. But I know there are people here who have played LOTS more RPGs than I have, and who will likely know what works in a good UI and what doesn't.

My main concern at this point is to try to design a decent UI system that will do what I want it to do, and hopefully avoid some potential pitfalls that I'm not seeing. The feedback so far has been exactly what I wanted - I hadn't thought about the iPad, and the tips about the Ultima 6 solo mode and Baldur's Gate movement controls are very helpful. I don't want to spend months designing and implementing a UI, only to find out it doesn't work well in situations that I overlooked.
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Re: RPG game design questions

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Randomizer wrote:If you like the Avadon interaction with your character it gets better in Avadon 2 where their class knowledge appears at certain places.

You aren't going to please everyone with the debates over single character versus party. linear versus open world, .... Spiderweb Software had for Blades of Avernum long debates by the scenario designers over what to make.
I know you can't say much, but are there many changes in the new game?
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Re: RPG game design questions

Post by Randomizer »

What's been officially announced:

Male and female player characters
A new class to play and there are now 5 Hands
New areas to explore
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Re: RPG game design questions

Post by SpottedShroom »

I just remembered that the Linux port of Avadon was done by a third party company, which means no Linux Avadon 2. I'm so bummed.
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Re: RPG game design questions

Post by Evnissyen »

SpottedShroom wrote:I just remembered that the Linux port of Avadon was done by a third party company, which means no Linux Avadon 2. I'm so bummed.
Really? He's not porting it to Linux, this time? Wow.

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Re: RPG game design questions

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Thanks, Evnissyen! I'm prototyping the isometric tile engine now, to find the best balance of screen resolution and tile size, so I can nail down the art requirements. I plan on hiring a professional artist for this one, so the game looks as good as possible.
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