Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

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Travet46
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Re: Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

Post by Travet46 » November 14th, 2015, 1:05 pm

SpottedShroom wrote:
"The problem with modding for Book III wasn't related to lack of information. It was that the engine itself needed changes that BW couldn't justify making given that they weren't likely to lead to much revenue."

Admittedly, I'm only an amateur at modding, but why can't text files (dialog) be edited or why can't graphic files be replaced?
Beginning with Eschalon 2 all the files are zipped and password protected making changes impossible.

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SpottedShroom
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Re: Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

Post by SpottedShroom » November 14th, 2015, 1:54 pm

The requested changes to the engine would have allowed it to load resources from outside the encrypted datapak.

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BasiliskWrangler
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Re: Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

Post by BasiliskWrangler » November 14th, 2015, 6:33 pm

What I discovered during the development of the Eschalon series is that in order to have proper modding, a game must be very modular. It needs to use a proper scripting language and have most of its variables exposed to the script interpreter. Eschalon used a lot of hard-coded (non-scripted) functions and proprietary data formats, making it very hard for modders to have any deep-level control of the game engine. Even if I had released all the original tools we used to make the game with, fans still couldn't have done anything without major engine re-writes- that's how ingrained the external game data is with the engine.

The people who made some basic map and data editing apps already took modding as far as it could go without me re-writing large chunks of the game engine.
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Leezar
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Re: Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

Post by Leezar » November 17th, 2015, 6:05 am

Cant pretend I know shit about programming.

That said, how about for the next project from the very start design the developers tools to be user-friendly?

See what Bungie did with Marathon and Myth (before they sold their soul to MS) - something like that?

I mean, you said the work isnt worth for Eschalon, but if you from the start are userfriendly, how much extra work is that?

Something to think about, maybe? ;)

Edit: Especially considering Myth II was alive for like ten years and still had a user-base of 30 000 when MS decided to pull the plug (rather than ask for a small fee to keep the servers running :x ). This, I believe, was in no small part due to the great moddability. So, there is money to be made this route also, I would surmise. Maybe even be a total dick and do what Realmz did and ask for a fee for (others) user-created content.
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KillingMoon
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Re: Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

Post by KillingMoon » November 17th, 2015, 4:21 pm

Mod tools can help sell a game, so you want them at release, together with the game. For more than one reason you want them part of the design from the start.
My first ever post in this forum was about game editors, a good game editor can be a big thing for me. I know a few recent games that have treated editing tools as an after thought, and then you usually see the same problems appearing. Game fans getting impatient when that mod tool isn't coming will always happen. Excuses from the game makers about being too busy with the expansion or there being financial constraints are also standard.
Probably a game maker should keep his mouth shut about an editor or modding tools altogether if he isn't sure about it. Then if something still appears, way after, there is never going to be any negative reaction - although perhaps not many people will then still care about it either, like was the case with Expeditions: Conquistador's editor. That Fibula editor came way later and was very limited, but I can't recall the game makers having promised anything in advance either.

It might be too much, of course, for a developer to release a game and an editor at the same time. But it's not much worse for a game maker to release an RPG with just a main story line and only later adding any side quests than to release mod tools later. To be able to play around with a game by means of an editor or mod tools is part of a game's experience for many players.
It's a bit difficult to quantify how important commercially it is to have this accessible from the start, but it is of course a selling point.

I don't believe it was a coincidence that it was this particular subject that upset Prismatic Maelstrom.

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Kreador Freeaxe
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Re: Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

Post by Kreador Freeaxe » November 19th, 2015, 5:47 pm

I may not be the one to speak to the issue, as the development tools were of little interest to me. I knew I wasn't going to have the time to use them, no matter how good and easy they were. So those tools getting canceled didn't upset me that much. And the editors that were released by our good friends here were sufficient that several folks did excellent add-ons.

In addition, I know a lot about putting projects together and what happens when what you imagined you could do runs into the reality of what is possible and what is reasonable. Thomas ran smack into that wall, and I know it hurt him. Clearly, it also hurt PM. BW got past it and is moving on and building more fun games for us to love. PM couldn't. That's the difference.

There are a lot of things in this world more important than modding tools for Eschalon. Enjoy the games. Enjoy the add-ons fans have made. Enjoy your families and friends and stop being grumpy.
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Re: Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

Post by BasiliskWrangler » November 20th, 2015, 9:31 am

Locking this topic because enough has been said about it. Time to move on. :)
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Re: Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

Post by BasiliskWrangler » January 31st, 2016, 1:48 pm

Notice!

After speaking with Mr. Maelstrom over the last few weeks, I have agreed to restore his account.

For his part, he will abide by the rules (no trolling people, threats or insults). Prismatic has made valuable contributions in the past and I look forward to his contributions in the future.
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Prismatic Maelstrom
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Re: Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

Post by Prismatic Maelstrom » August 29th, 2016, 3:43 pm

I know I asked you to leave restoring my posts so your time wasn't taken away from development because it didn't look simple to do, but could you please look into it again sometime?

I remember the grammar thread for Book III, taking a screenshot of every dialogue in the game and then looking through each image. While I am no professional, it was hours of unpaid work and it makes me sad knowing I can no longer view it.
Book II and Book III Soundtrack on YouTube | Thaermore Revisited - A Mod for Eschalon: Book I

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Re: Prismatic Maelstrom Banned

Post by BasiliskWrangler » August 30th, 2016, 7:15 am

Prismatic Maelstrom wrote:I know I asked you to leave restoring my posts so your time wasn't taken away from development because it didn't look simple to do, but could you please look into it again sometime?

I remember the grammar thread for Book III, taking a screenshot of every dialogue in the game and then looking through each image. While I am no professional, it was hours of unpaid work and it makes me sad knowing I can no longer view it.
What I will look into will be to give you access to the archived area where your old posts are. You can search through them and tell me which posts you want restored (probably by sending me the direct link to that post, and which forum it should be restored to).

I just started my day here, so it will be this afternoon before I can get to it.
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