Hunger and Thirst

[KillingMoon]

A long time ago, in this thread: http://www.basiliskgames.com/forums/vie ... =20&t=3449 there was this suggestion for hunger and thirst from Dragonslayer:

1. hunger or thirst only have minor effect now and can be ignored, making food and water no that useful, maybe you can change it like this:
when you become hunger, you get starve which -1 hp after 30 rounds, if you don't remove the starve after 30 rounds, next time it will be -2 hp, and next is -3 hp, -4 hp, -5 hp .... or make it even worse for high level character to like -1% hp, -2% hp, -3% hp, when it reach -100% hp, you will certainly die no matter how powerful you are. Eat anything will reset the count to zero and next time starve will start from -1 again. Thirst is like like hunger just updates every 20 rounds instead.

This is much like what happens in real life, you will become more and more hunger if have nothing to eat, and willl surely die if you starve long time enough.

BasiliskWrangler responded:

Hunger ideas: I like them a lot. I'll put this back for 1.04 update since it is not a bug, and bugs are all I am focusing on for 1.03.

I haven't seen the most recent versions of the game, but I don't think this has been implemented? I'm sorry if it has, but otherwise I'd like to put it up again here as a suggestion!

[IJBall]

A long time ago, in this thread: http://www.basiliskgames.com/forums/vie ... =20&t=3449 there was this suggestion for hunger and thirst from Dragonslayer:

1. hunger or thirst only have minor effect now and can be ignored, making food and water no that useful, maybe you can change it like this:
when you become hunger, you get starve which -1 hp after 30 rounds, if you don't remove the starve after 30 rounds, next time it will be -2 hp, and next is -3 hp, -4 hp, -5 hp .... or make it even worse for high level character to like -1% hp, -2% hp, -3% hp, when it reach -100% hp, you will certainly die no matter how powerful you are. Eat anything will reset the count to zero and next time starve will start from -1 again. Thirst is like like hunger just updates every 20 rounds instead.

This is much like what happens in real life, you will become more and more hunger if have nothing to eat, and willl surely die if you starve long time enough.

BasiliskWrangler responded:

Hunger ideas: I like them a lot. I'll put this back for 1.04 update since it is not a bug, and bugs are all I am focusing on for 1.03.

I haven't seen the most recent versions of the game, but I don't think this has been implemented? I'm sorry if it has, but otherwise I'd like to put it up again here as a suggestion!

I haven't tested this myself yet (I mean to, at some point), but making Hunger/Thirst damage "progressive" as suggested by DragonSlayer was in the "suggestions" list for v1.05, and I believe BW did add that - from the v1.05 'change log':

Balance: Starvation and Dehydration damage is now compounded, so the more hungry or thirsty your character is, the more damage he/she endures.

So I'm pretty sure it's in there now.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

I do know the one time I accidentally let my new character in 1.05 get thirsty, she took a LOT of damage (quick traveled without remembering to drink from my water skin).

[Evnissyen]

By the way . . . ideally, I think that instead of damaging you, thirst and hunger should affect how well you can fight, and maybe even how quickly/slowly you can walk. But... yeah... I know this makes things more complicated and you can't have everything.

At any rate: at first thought I liked the idea of having the penalties compile with time . . . but after thinking about it a moment, I'm not sure I'm on board with it after all. I think hunger and thirst should have increased penalties at any rate, and if you increase the penalties (and quicken the thirst & hunger meters) then I don't think there's really a need for penalties to increase over time. I mean... the penalties of hunger and thirst compile just by the prolongation, anyhow. [Shrugs.]

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Evnissyen, are you thinking that hunger and thirst should have a "disease" type component, lessening physical stats (and perhaps mental ones) when you're starving or dehydrated?

The problem with not having the damage get larger over time is that a high Endurance fighter can ignore food completely with no real problems. Making it possible to starve or die of dehydration is the only way to make the necessity to eat an actual challenge.

[KillingMoon]

So I'm pretty sure it's in there now.

Great! Sorry for bringing it up, then.
I have a problem with keeping track of the developments, as I have lost my internet connection and don't see the forum regularly. I haven't got 1.05 as well; it's tricky for me to post now...

[Evnissyen]

Evnissyen, are you thinking that hunger and thirst should have a "disease" type component, lessening physical stats (and perhaps mental ones) when you're starving or dehydrated?

The problem with not having the damage get larger over time is that a high Endurance fighter can ignore food completely with no real problems. Making it possible to starve or die of dehydration is the only way to make the necessity to eat an actual challenge.

Yes, a disease-behavior is exactly what I mean, except that realistically it should affect all stats except INT & WIS . . . as well as Resistances, of course.

I hate being diseased. Very gradually losing hp, however, is not much of a concern to me. Especially knowing that if I have to I can always cast "Divine Heal".

My ranger doesn't generally have to worry about receiving damage except from those opponents with long-range weapons. Dehydration and Starvation really aren't big damagers.

The only way to make people want to not be starving/dehydrated while they're not in any danger of encounter is to prevent QT while this is the case . . . and maybe even make walking slower.

...But, again... not really highly important. I suppose you can simply make the hp damage much steeper and then players will pay attention. It wouldn't be as realistic, but I suppose all you probably need to do is change a number.

[KillingMoon]

I hate being diseased. Very gradually losing hp, however, is not much of a concern to me.

It is for me! From a roleplaying point of view, I'm always kicking myself:
'Oh no, my character is suffering; he's hungry, I didn't feed him! What a negligent bastard am I!'

[CrazyBernie]

Perhaps you should be playing The Sims...??

[severian]

for the original quote "real life" part...well...
progressive damage for hunger is no good at all.
a whole week of fasting actually makes you more focused, sharp-minded and full if energy.
after that you just start feeling weaker, and human beeing can last even a month without food.
so - hunger first makes mind sharper, THEN AFTER SOME TIME you just get weaker.

water is something completly different.
thirst damage and weakness should be progressive, and that would certailny be like "in a real world".

to get more real, a chance of curing some diseases by fasting might be implemented

[fudgemaster]

Being hungry should make you do less damage, it should lower your strength.

[Evnissyen]

a whole week of fasting actually makes you more focused, sharp-minded and full if energy.

Are you sure about this? How much [actual scientific] study has been done on this? Starvation causes weakness. As well as greater susceptibility to contagions -- from a weakened immune system. The body needs food. Period. When it doesn't get that food it immediately begins to eat at your body fat (also called weightloss). Then it attacks your muscles. ...That's your long-term thing. So it wouldn't make you physically weaker right away, but it might make you weaker in terms of blood delivery, for example, oxygen depletion, whatever the actual immediate effects are of starvation.

I understand your short-term vs. long-term division, which I appreciate... but really... if I haven't eaten in a really long time I don't feel full of energy, I feel weaker, I feel nervous, I feel sick. And I find myself really skeptical of the 'focused mind' claim . . . wishful thinking? Placebo effect? I'd have to see some actual scientific study on that.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

a whole week of fasting actually makes you more focused, sharp-minded and full if energy.

Are you sure about this? How much [actual scientific] study has been done on this? Starvation causes weakness. As well as greater susceptibility to contagions -- from a weakened immune system. The body needs food. Period. When it doesn't get that food it immediately begins to eat at your body fat (also called weightloss). Then it attacks your muscles. ...That's your long-term thing. So it wouldn't make you physically weaker right away, but it might make you weaker in terms of blood delivery, for example, oxygen depletion, whatever the actual immediate effects are of starvation.

I understand your short-term vs. long-term division, which I appreciate... but really... if I haven't eaten in a really long time I don't feel full of energy, I feel weaker, I feel nervous, I feel sick. And I find myself really skeptical of the 'focused mind' claim . . . wishful thinking? Placebo effect? I'd have to see some actual scientific study on that.

Also, though, in most cases of "long term" fasting (more than a day), the person is not engaging in strenuous activity like running for his life or beating up the monsters that are attacking her. Anyway, that could be the range of the hunger bar, anyway. It should go down more slowly than the thirst bar (people need to drink more regularly to maintain conditioning).

[Evnissyen]

Also, though, in most cases of "long term" fasting (more than a day), the person is not engaging in strenuous activity like running for his life or beating up the monsters that are attacking her. Anyway, that could be the range of the hunger bar, anyway. It should go down more slowly than the thirst bar (people need to drink more regularly to maintain conditioning).

Also true. And yeah, I've mentioned the same thing, about the thirst bar, myself, that it needs to drop notably more quickly than the hunger bar (since I think it drops more quickly already, but won't put money on it since I don't pay all that much attention to the bars... which I think is a bad thing)... in general, though, they should both descend more quickly.

I know there's a difference to be considered between hunger and critical hunger, and between thirst and critical thirst. I think BW seems to be concerned with critical hunger/thirst which is why they descend so slowly... .

If we're not exerting ourselves we get hungry long before we get thirsty, but our hero(ine) is very active, so he/she sweats a lot, depleting the body really quickly of much needed water. Dehydration or overheating makes you weak and then makes you faint. That happens pretty damn quickly. Hunger reaches the critical point much more slowly and also has a much slower action from that critical point.

Also, you might say that hunger has two critical points: the point where it begins eating fat, and then the point where the physical processes begin to be noticeably affected.

This isn't even getting into where the character is: Hellice Lake or the Grazelands... . All this info can get really complicated to program, so I don't blame BW for simplifying things by just calling up the HP Reduction Program and forgetting about locale. (Someone correct me if locale matters because, again, I don't pay a lot of attention to the bars.)

Here's what I say: somebody come up with a really awesome way to deal with all of these things in a way that's really simple to program. Email it to BW to make him happy, and post it here to make all of us happy.