Dodge-the forgotten defense

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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby Lightzy » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:45 am

This is all so much d&d wash :>
Armor was completely designed for mobility.
NO warrior would wear armor that impedes mobility because they'd be uncomfortable fighting in it and know that they were are great risk (even the soldiers in IRAQ refuse to wear some kinds of body armor because they're restrictive to movement and can get them killed)

I think d&d really screwed up the conception ppl have of what armor was
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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby Necromis » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:29 am

Nobody has said that armour has no mobility. However, to think that armour has as much mobility as an un-armoured person, or that it is mobile enough to allow a dodge type skill that should be for an un-armoured person is ludicrous. Armour was meant to deflect a blow that hits you and to protect you in that way. I mean if you hit an un-armoured person vs an armoured person that un-armoured person is most likely to die from the wound were the armoured person will probably not even be slowed down much.
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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby Antigrav » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:35 am

As Book III is not going to include any drastic changes to the system, the best solution for the end of the trilogy would be to remove dodge as a skill altogether.

Dodging is a natural reflex anyway, not something you have to learn how to do. I can dodge, and I've never read a book on the subject or had anyone teach me how to do it (unless dodgeball in elementary school counts).
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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby Necromis » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:45 am

Ever spared with someone boxing? Ever seen someone train for martial arts? Ever noticed a boxer bobbing up and down on either side of a long rope while practicing? Dodge, just like parrying, is a skill. It can be learned, not sure how much from a book, but that is game mechanics.
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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby Kreador Freeaxe » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:03 pm

Antigrav wrote:As Book III is not going to include any drastic changes to the system, the best solution for the end of the trilogy would be to remove dodge as a skill altogether.

Dodging is a natural reflex anyway, not something you have to learn how to do. I can dodge, and I've never read a book on the subject or had anyone teach me how to do it (unless dodgeball in elementary school counts).

And I can punch, but I'm not about to get into a ring with Mike Tyson. To think that the ability to dodge an attack in such a way that you not only avoid getting hit, but put yourself in a better position for returning the attack is a complete misunderstanding. There is ability and there is technique. I said before that I think that Speed (which is somewhat akin to what we generally think of as agility the way it's used in this game) should allow a certain amount of natural dodging ability, but the skill improves on that markedly.
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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby CrazyBernie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:56 am

Lightzy wrote:This is all so much d&d wash :>
Armor was completely designed for mobility.
NO warrior would wear armor that impedes mobility because they'd be uncomfortable fighting in it and know that they were are great risk (even the soldiers in IRAQ refuse to wear some kinds of body armor because they're restrictive to movement and can get them killed)

I think d&d really screwed up the conception ppl have of what armor was


I think designing a game too much around reality really screws up the conception that people have of what a game is supposed to be. :wink:

Not all armor was designed specifically for mobility.
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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby Lightzy » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:34 am

I'm not saying to gear it towards realism, I'm saying to gear it towards choice and maximum flexibility.

I find it annoying when games go with 'archtypes' (ie monk/fighter/mage) by ARTIFICIALLY making their skills incompatible and forcing me to make the same as ever..

As in, 'armor interferes with magery so mages cannot wear armor' (?!? why?) etc.
Just let every player have the possibility of using ANY skill they he chooses and use EVERY type of equipment they find instead of having artificial restrictions.

So I'm against dodge being incompatible with armor.
Heavy armor has its own costs


the fact that logic also supports this, well
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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby Necromis » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:11 pm

um, actually I can give you at least two reasons right off the top of my head why armour should be a problem for a mage. First, have you ever seen any armour that had pockets/pouches for you to have the components that most games say spell casters need to cast spells? Secondly, have you ever seen gauntlets that were designed to allow someone to do intracate motions and gestures? I think that these games have been overly generious in that aspect. I personally think that a person casting spells should not be able to wear anything over light armour and should not be allowed to wear any metal hand protection. Bracers and light leather gloves would work, though.
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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby Kreador Freeaxe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:46 pm

BW already does limit mages in terms of hand wear, etc, based on the weight of what's in your hands. However, you're making the assumption that magic in Eschalon is based around components and/or intricate gestures. Much of it is based on the mental prowess (Concentration) of the mage, which is why that can be an important stat for mages to increase in order to wear better protection while still casting spells. The balance is there without artificial absolutes.
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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby Lightzy » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:20 pm

Well, granted, you make good points. but only if magic = D&D magic.

I always imagined magic needing no hand movements or components. only concentration and skill.
I don't remember magic requiring anything in the way of gestures or components in eschalon either.

And anyway, wear the armor without the gauntlets and sew some pouches to the belt :P
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Re: Dodge-the forgotten defense

Postby Antigrav » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:08 am

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:And I can punch, but I'm not about to get into a ring with Mike Tyson. To think that the ability to dodge an attack in such a way that you not only avoid getting hit, but put yourself in a better position for returning the attack is a complete misunderstanding. There is ability and there is technique. I said before that I think that Speed (which is somewhat akin to what we generally think of as agility the way it's used in this game) should allow a certain amount of natural dodging ability, but the skill improves on that markedly.


That brings me back to some comments made before, about how armor is used in this system vs. others. It would be more interesting if we had three ways to avoid getting hurt: evasion (getting out of the way), blocking/parrying (interfering with an attack) and absorption (armor). So far in Eschalon, dodging and shield blocking have not been worth the skill points. Dodging is, after all, redundant in a system that treats armor principally as a way to avoid being hit.
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