Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography skill.

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Lord_P
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Lord_P » January 16th, 2013, 7:51 am

whitepony wrote:Cartography skill can be complemented by intelligence (in the way Spot Hidden is complemented by perception), so that high intelligence would enable a character to draw the most basic things on the map (that is walls).
Funny thing about Spot Hidden: you don't need to have the skill in order to see hidden things. High perception is enough. And because mages have the highest perception, mages also see all traps.

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by IJBall » January 16th, 2013, 12:57 pm

Lord_P wrote:
whitepony wrote:Cartography skill can be complemented by intelligence (in the way Spot Hidden is complemented by perception), so that high intelligence would enable a character to draw the most basic things on the map (that is walls).
Funny thing about Spot Hidden: you don't need to have the skill in order to see hidden things. High perception is enough. And because mages have the highest perception, mages also see all traps.
That's true of a lot of the "complimented" Skills though - you don't actually need Move Silently to "move silently" if your DEX is high enough; you don't need Spot Hidden if PER is high enough; you probably don't need Skullduggery if your CON is high enough; etc.

I think that was whitepony's point - he's saying you should get basically Level 1 in Cartography if your INT is high enough (say, at INT = 25 or INT = 30, or something). (And that's an interesting angle that may be worth considering...)

Incidentally, that's why a lot of us are pushing for Dodge to be 'complemented' by Speed in Book III - aside from just making sense that Dodge should be complemented by SPD, I think a lot of us would like to see characters get some "free" Dodge (i.e. 'Dodge' without the Dodge Skill) if our character's SPD is high enough...

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Lord_P » January 17th, 2013, 8:57 am

IJBall wrote:Incidentally, that's why a lot of us are pushing for Dodge to be 'complemented' by Speed in Book III - aside from just making sense that Dodge should be complemented by SPD, I think a lot of us would like to see characters get some "free" Dodge (i.e. 'Dodge' without the Dodge Skill) if our character's SPD is high enough...
Once again I agree. But the dodge mechanic should be changed slightly. The 'every point in dodge gives 1% chance to dodge' works poorly now and would work even worse then.

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by whitepony » January 17th, 2013, 9:33 am

Cant see why dodge would work worse if it would be complemented by Speed.The general idea is that Utility Skills (such as cartography, spot hidden, move silently etc.) should be complemented by stats (speed for dodge, perception for spot hidden etc.) While the Core Skills (such as arcane for mages, weapon for warriors, bow 4 archers etc. ) should be developped by means of exp. points.

Just a point of view anyways :) Eshalon is very cool and replayable game as it is, many thanks for this expereance :D

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Lord_P » January 17th, 2013, 1:02 pm

whitepony wrote:Cant see why dodge would work worse if it would be complemented by Speed.The general idea is that Utility Skills (such as cartography, spot hidden, move silently etc.) should be complemented by stats (speed for dodge, perception for spot hidden etc.) While the Core Skills (such as arcane for mages, weapon for warriors, bow 4 archers etc. ) should be developped by means of exp. points.

Just a point of view anyways :) Eshalon is very cool and replayable game as it is, many thanks for this expereance :D
Interesting idea, whitepony. Maybe Basilisk Games could integrate a system like that to their future games?

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by whitepony » January 18th, 2013, 12:44 am

I would so much love to see Book III as that future game :D

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by DragonDai » February 10th, 2013, 9:55 pm

I am a big fan of the idea of making it a difficulty modifying option (like the options at the beginning of book II to turn hunger on/off, item degradation on/off, etc) to start the game with 1 in cartography.

Another option that I think is just fine is to do something similar as you did in book 1. Make the trainer for cartography someone who is easily accessible super early in the game. That also works really well.

Finally, an option I really like is the idea that map making can be handled via the automapping feature (cartography) or by buying a general map of the area (for basically nothing at any "general" store) that shows basic boundaries of the map you're on. Basically just the borders of your map and that's about it (maybe also super obvious landmarks pre-marked, or even a complete map for places like a major city, like the Port in book II). The player could take these maps (which would auto-load into your mini-map when you entered the area) and then annotate them by hand with different color options for mapping in your own trees, houses, shorelines, etc. It would allow the user to be as detailed or casual about it as they wanted to be, but would never be as fully featured or intricate as the cartography option. And it would never show things like enemies or what-not (things that are in flux) but would show the player's marker traveling around the map they hand-created in the mini-map screen.

I like this third option the best because it allows those who want a highly detailed, automatically generated map to use the cartography skill (which could still be 100% optional), or allow players who just want a rough idea where they are and what's around them to do it all by hand, thereby making the experience a little more personal for those players that would like to use it.

It would be a little more complicated than what's already in the game, but it wouldn't have to be any more complicated than the most simple of MSPaint-esc programs, with a very small color set to choose from and maybe a single brush size (or two at most). Just something super simple that people could use that the game would be able to track your position on.

Anyway, the third option does involve more work for the development team, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's something that couldn't be worked into book III due to how much coding and what-not that's already gone into the game. But I really like the idea. If not for book III, maybe for future Basilisk games.

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by mkreku » March 29th, 2013, 8:33 pm

Weird request.

I always thought the cartographer's skill was one of the most interesting skills of the game. Very cleverly made and I always wonder why no other games have thought of that.

One concession I would be willing to make is to make the first level of cartography free for all. It would not be strange that everyone can read a basic map, but to get details and colours and names and everything you would need to invest points in cartography training.

It's a decent compromise as it doesn't sacrifice playability (it IS a game, after all) and still rewards the ones willing to spend points in the cartography skill.

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by silverkitty » March 31st, 2013, 6:37 pm

Painted Lady wrote: If you are wearing the cartography amulet that means you aren't wearing something else. And, when wearing that something else, you lose cartography points. So, if you view cartography as just another skill, that is only fair. When you take off the foraging ring (Ring of the Boar) you wouldn't expect to retain those foraging skill points.
But if I take off my lock-picking gloves, I don't expect locks to re-lock themselves.

There are two basic things going on being represented by one system (summarizing my post on page 1 of this thread, which was way over-long):

1) things your character knows - like how to find the way to the corner store from your apartment -- in E:B2, you should have started with a map of the town you'd been living in for weeks/months. This knowledge can come many ways, but you never expect it to disappear (unless we introduce a forgetfulness potion).

2) things you have written down - notes, directions, and, yes, actual hand-drawn maps. These should be even more permanent than memory. But do we really think your character is drawing as they walk along the road? In armor, watching for ambush? And why do they NOT draw the most obvious things like rivers and roads BEFORE harder-to-detail things like the exact path through a grove of trees?

The problem, ultimately, is that a "proper" cartography system would require several layers of hand-drawn maps made by the developer - one that has roads/rivers drawn out crudely, with labelled squares representing buildings. Followed by one that has these things fleshed out in finer detail and includes interior spaces. Followed by one that has everything precise (this one wouldn't have to be hand-drawn)... and possibly some layers in between. Instead of drawing an image of your surroundings, you just have a mask showing which parts of the pre-drawn images to show.
(But that introduces the meta-game power of hacking images to discover everything, ugh.)

There's no super-correct system that fixes everything, unfortunately. I would tend to err on the side of presenting more map/info to the player than less, because their memory and the notes they take when they camp at night should be pretty good and it's frustrating to players to "lose" info. BW has chosen to err on the side of less information to make the skill "worth the points."

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Vroqren » March 31st, 2013, 9:47 pm

While it's true that in Book II it might have made more sense to start with a map of some kind, in Book III we can expect nothing like that. Based on the ending to Book II, I would estimate that we know nothing about the surrounding towns.

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by mwindsong » April 3rd, 2013, 3:35 pm

I think my preference would be for cartography to continue as a purchased or point driven skill, but with the skill beginning at level 1 at the outset of the game. I do have a question as to the possibility of being able to write on the maps we buy at the stores/merchants? I'm thinking of when you pull up the full size map, maybe a person could put their own notations on it to keep track of where they have been and what they already accomplished. I know a lot of people write on the maps they buy when they go on vacation, so it would be similar to that. I think that would be a huge bonus. I'm not concerned with it auto loading into the mini-map section since it would be a bit harder for me to read then. I end up with my nose 5" from the screen often enough as it is. lol.

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