Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography skill.

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Kreador Freeaxe
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

BasiliskWrangler wrote:
Painted Lady wrote:BW giveth and he taketh away, so to speak.
And so I do.

But seriously, we will look into ways to improve the automap further for Book III. Originally, we considered the overwriting of the automap (in Book 1) to be a bug. But, in some ways, it made sense so we really didn't change it for Book 2. We're still playing around with tweaks to the automap in Book 3; no promises yet to if it will be different or better.
Perhaps the real answer is to change the name from "Cartography," which implies that you actually draw the map as you walk along, in which case it would be odd to lose the detail, to something more like "Sense of Direction."
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Lord_P »

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:Perhaps the real answer is to change the name from "Cartography," which implies that you actually draw the map as you walk along, in which case it would be odd to lose the detail, to something more like "Sense of Direction."
While I agree with Kreador's idea, I think that "Sense of Direction" doesn't sound right.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Randomizer »

At least BW isn't as mean as the GM in a tabletop D&D game I played in where if you mapped you slowed down movement (more food and water consumption) and lost time acting since you were holding a map and pen instead of a weapon. Plus you couldn't use a map in the dark or running (fleeing monsters).
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Lord_P »

Uh, what if you had a light source?
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Kreador Freeaxe
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

Lord_P wrote:Uh, what if you had a light source?
You'd have your little pool of light so that while you're studying your map, the monsters can see you from a distance and close in without you being able to see them in the darkness. ;-)

There will always be trade-offs between reality and what can be achieved and reasonably balanced in a video game. I guess in large part the cartography stuff doesn't annoy me as much because I don't particularly worry about the mini-map. For people who are more used to referring to it, I understand it can be a more major issue. Arguing that once you've drawn the map, it shouldn't just vanish sounds reasonable, except that the cartography skill is not really just about drawing a map. As noted, when you get high enough, you begin to sense the npcs and creatures around you before you can see them, which is not something that would be on a map. That's why I was thinking of calling it something less specifically related to a physical map and more related to the character's ability to orient him or herself in the environment.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Vroqren »

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:There will always be trade-offs between reality and what can be achieved and reasonably balanced in a video game. I guess in large part the cartography stuff doesn't annoy me as much because I don't particularly worry about the mini-map. For people who are more used to referring to it, I understand it can be a more major issue. Arguing that once you've drawn the map, it shouldn't just vanish sounds reasonable, except that the cartography skill is not really just about drawing a map. As noted, when you get high enough, you begin to sense the npcs and creatures around you before you can see them, which is not something that would be on a map. That's why I was thinking of calling it something less specifically related to a physical map and more related to the character's ability to orient him or herself in the environment.

You said it right there: Orienteering. I think if it was to be renamed, that would be a good option.

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Bob the Thief »

I'm generally satisfied with the way Cartography works. As you get better at it, you are more skilled at making maps and the detail in the map reflects this.

The only objection I have is the "bug" where if you re-visit an area with a lower Cartography skill than you had before, the detail of the map reduces as you travel through the area.

Since the map is stored with the character and since it knows the level of detail each sub-unit was drawn at, it should be possible to say that when a character enters a square and his cartography skill is less than the level at which the map is drawn at, do nothing to the map.

It already tracks this information when you go through an area with a higher cartography skill and the detail of the map improves.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Lord_P »

I agree with Bob. Cartography is good as it is.
Kreador Freeaxe wrote:You'd have your little pool of light so that while you're studying your map, the monsters can see you from a distance and close in without you being able to see them in the darkness.
What if: you drew the map with a "warm" material and you had infravision? :)
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Vroqren »

Then making the map is not your biggest problem...

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by whitepony »

Many words have been said about finding the compromise between having automap or having a Cartography skill. The only real solution I see in this discussion is renaming the skill into Orienteering,which does not apeeal to me personally. Thus,let me introduce my vision of the issue. Automapping (taking notes of the surrondings and keeping them in mind) is a mental ability(memory in general) so, let us derive it directly from characters INTELLIGENCE. Say we would have a free cartography starting with intelligence 15(or say 13). The more intelligent the character is, the more details he keeps in minds. If you are not playing a very intelligent character, then you are free to spend your skill points on cartography
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by whitepony »

But again, this solution would lead to another dilemma- the overpowered mages would become even more powerfull, which can be further balanced by making mages more physycally fragile (low health).

Thanks for the great game by the way :D I really enjoyed it with and without a cartography skill.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by Lord_P »

whitepony wrote:But again, this solution would lead to another dilemma- the overpowered mages would become even more powerfull, which can be further balanced by making mages more physycally fragile (low health).

Thanks for the great game by the way :D I really enjoyed it with and without a cartography skill.
If mages had any lower health, a single spear froma Taurax Spearmaster would one-shot them.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by whitepony »

Disagreed. Mages in Eschalon can actually have pretty much health points (assuming that you can freely put points into constitution, and roll dices at creating, getting high con. and much health). Plus,they can easily protect themselves from any projectiles using a single spell.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by SpottedShroom »

I still say mages aren't overpowered in combat. The game is much easier as a archer than anything else. Mages DO have the benefit of only really needing to spend points on two skills, though, since spells can do basically anything skills can do.

I don't see BW making cartography based on Intelligence anyway, though. It just feels out of character for the games. I expect Book III to be basically unchanged from Books I and II in this respect. Sure, cartography has problems, but there doesn't seem to be a solution that's easy to implement and isn't a major change.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Post by whitepony »

Cartography skill can be complemented by intelligence (in the way Spot Hidden is complemented by perception), so that high intelligence would enable a character to draw the most basic things on the map (that is walls).
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