Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography skill.

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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby BrianLeichty42 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:43 am

norolim wrote:I agree with severian. I like Eschalon because it has no auto-map, no quest indicators, because you have to eat, drink, sleap and above all THINK, to finish the game.

Give people auto-maps, and next they'll want auto-level, auto-equip the best gear, auto-destroy everything, auto-do all that stuff that requires thinking and let me mash my xbox controller button mindlessly...Let's leave streamlining ( :evil: ) to EAware and their platformer series Mass Deffect.


Except that Eschalon isn't for X-Box, or any of those other gaming platforms other than PC. Not everyone enjoys that style of play. All that I was really asking for was a way to view the area map without having to use the Cartography skill, not for Auto-Leveling, etc.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby norolim » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:25 pm

BrianLeichty42 wrote:Except that Eschalon isn't for X-Box


And that's one of the main reasons it's so good.

Anyway, I didn't mean to condemn you for asking BW to make the game easier. I understand where you're coming from. After all, developers of modern
RPGs go to great extends to make them as easy as possible to appeal to a wide audience. It's not difficult to get used to that. My point is that Eschalon is meant to be different than modern RPGs. It's meant to be challenging and realistic. It requires players to plan and strategize, to learn ablilities that will let them survive in Eschalon not just kill everything that comes near. And Cartography is there for that reason: to increase difficulty and realism. I don't complain that I have to spend 5 points on Cartography, when I could be increasing my Swords to kill stuff faster, 'cause I accept the fact that in order to survive I need a set of skills. Just like in real life...
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby BrianLeichty42 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:48 am

norolim wrote:
BrianLeichty42 wrote:Except that Eschalon isn't for X-Box


And that's one of the main reasons it's so good.

Anyway, I didn't mean to condemn you for asking BW to make the game easier. I understand where you're coming from. After all, developers of modern
RPGs go to great extends to make them as easy as possible to appeal to a wide audience. It's not difficult to get used to that. My point is that Eschalon is meant to be different than modern RPGs. It's meant to be challenging and realistic. It requires players to plan and strategize, to learn ablilities that will let them survive in Eschalon not just kill everything that comes near. And Cartography is there for that reason: to increase difficulty and realism. I don't complain that I have to spend 5 points on Cartography, when I could be increasing my Swords to kill stuff faster, 'cause I accept the fact that in order to survive I need a set of skills. Just like in real life...


I don't know. I guess that I've just become spoiled because of playing games like Diablo 1 and 2, and Dungeon Siege 2, games where that was a sort of given. And the Baldur's Gate series and Icewind Dale. Also, the original Neverwinter Nights series. Maybe I've gotten so used to games that already have that feature that I don't have the patience to play games like these all the way through. Add to that the fact that in the first Eschalon game, Book 1, had that save game problem that keeps coming back after I've deleted the Save Game file and had to start over. I can only go through a beginning so many times before it gets old, no matter what type of character that I play. I remember playing the old Ultima games and they always had a map to let you know where your character was, and Wizardry(which didn't want to run very well on my computer). While they were fun to play at the time, the graphics left something to be desired. And then there was an Ultima game that came out that was in First-Person, and I didn't like that one very well because it always threw my sense of equilibrium off and made me feel very dizzy whenever I played it. So I had to quit playing it. I am not really a big fan of games where I have to worry about things like Hunger or Thirst or equipment durability(although that was present in Diablo 1 and 2).
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby Kreador Freeaxe » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:37 am

I still find this discussion a bit funny, but then I played more tabletop RPGs than computer for most of my life, where if you wanted a map of where you were wandering, you drew it yourself. I've never felt the need to put points into cartography until I found the trainer. The minimap actually takes away from immersion, for me.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby CrazyBernie » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:23 pm

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:I still find this discussion a bit funny, but then I played more tabletop RPGs than computer for most of my life, where if you wanted a map of where you were wandering, you drew it yourself. I've never felt the need to put points into cartography until I found the trainer. The minimap actually takes away from immersion, for me.


Nailed it on the head. I find that not having cartography to start makes you actually pay more attention to your surroundings.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby KillingMoon » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:12 pm

Possibly 3D games need them more than 2D games. In games where you can rotate the camera any way you want I'm getting lost even with a mini map, as I don't even know where north and south is anymore. Yeah, some arrow in a corner of the mini map may be pointing downwards to the left or so... still hard to get a good mental picture.
A fixed perspective like in Eschalon certainly helps the orientation.

The request for some points at the start in Cartography as an alternative difficulty option is a valid one, of course, but Cartography as a skill is seen as a more vital design feature of the game than wear and tear of equipment or the food and drink requirement. They were added later, after all, so it was easier to make them optional.
Also there's Xolotl's character editor for giving you a point in Cartography at the start of the game (or more), if you're really reluctant to spend any of your normal points on it.
BasiliskWrangler probably has some design decisions to make about which options the game should have at setup. Book II had only options that could hardly be given to a player any other way.
Since with Cartography players do already have some of options outside of the difficulty setup, it might have a harder time getting included in there, even when BasiliskWrangler would decide it's a good idea in itself to do this.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby Axiom » Thu May 03, 2012 1:22 am

Just say no to automapping. The cool implementation of Cartography is what keeps me coming back to games like Eschalon and Ultima Online.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby SpottedShroom » Mon May 07, 2012 4:41 pm

I kind of like this spam account.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby Lord_P » Tue May 08, 2012 9:43 am

SpottedShroom wrote:I kind of like this spam account.

:lol:
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby Axiom » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:58 pm

Another vote AGAINST Automapping!

The game is selling well WITHOUT automapping so BG must be doing something right.

If you want automap, there are many games out there for you.

Let those of us who want a challenge stick to games like Eschalon.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby Unbeliever » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:29 am

I don't see everyone's objection to free max cartography skill as an OPTION you could choose at the start of the game. You're not being required to use the feature, or even disable it -- it would default to being OFF, and so it would only affect those of us wimps who WANTED it. Assuming a decent score penalty, it would more or less eliminate end-game "bragging rights" for us low-life cheaters. It wouldn't even be a mid-game cheat temptation; you could only enable it when starting new. So where's the harm?

Now if BW doesn't want to do it for creative/artistic reasons, that's his call. But I don't see why other players would have a negative opinion? Is one more checkbox, ONE time, THAT big a deal?

Oh well...
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby IJBall » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:36 pm

Unbeliever wrote:I don't see everyone's objection to free max cartography skill as an OPTION you could choose at the start of the game. You're not being required to use the feature, or even disable it -- it would default to being OFF, and so it would only affect those of us wimps who WANTED it. Assuming a decent score penalty, it would more or less eliminate end-game "bragging rights" for us low-life cheaters. It wouldn't even be a mid-game cheat temptation; you could only enable it when starting new. So where's the harm?

Now if BW doesn't want to do it for creative/artistic reasons, that's his call. But I don't see why other players would have a negative opinion? Is one more checkbox, ONE time, THAT big a deal?

I'm with you.

I can see where adding manifold game options would be a coding headache/additional game complication for BW. (Which is why I don't expect many, or any, of these options to ultimately be implemented by BW... :( )

But I don't get why some people around here get so aggravated by the idea of adding Automapping, or Fatigue, etc. game options that every player would have their own discretion to implement for their games or not. {shrug}
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby krisklef » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:00 pm

I like that the map doesn't necessarily immediately become available at the first level, but what I WOULD like to see is the map detail retained even after "losing" cartography skill. I.e. after traveling through an area wearing a compass that gives me a cart. bonus, I shouldn't see that detail being overwritten by a lower level of mapping when I go through without said amulet.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby Painted Lady » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:18 pm

krisklef wrote:I like that the map doesn't necessarily immediately become available at the first level, but what I WOULD like to see is the map detail retained even after "losing" cartography skill. I.e. after traveling through an area wearing a compass that gives me a cart. bonus, I shouldn't see that detail being overwritten by a lower level of mapping when I go through without said amulet.

I understand your frustration at "losing ground" when you take off the amulet. However, BW is all about the trade-offs required to build your character. If you are wearing the cartography amulet that means you aren't wearing something else. And, when wearing that something else, you lose cartography points. So, if you view cartography as just another skill, that is only fair. When you take off the foraging ring (Ring of the Boar) you wouldn't expect to retain those foraging skill points.

BW giveth and he taketh away, so to speak.
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Re: Automapping feature instead of requiring Cartography ski

Postby BasiliskWrangler » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:30 pm

Painted Lady wrote:BW giveth and he taketh away, so to speak.

And so I do.

But seriously, we will look into ways to improve the automap further for Book III. Originally, we considered the overwriting of the automap (in Book 1) to be a bug. But, in some ways, it made sense so we really didn't change it for Book 2. We're still playing around with tweaks to the automap in Book 3; no promises yet to if it will be different or better.
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