Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

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Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby dbgager » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:24 pm

Along with Hunger and Thirst maybe Fatigue should be added also. This would even increase the strategy if sleep was required. Possibly even to the point that as fatigue goes up past a certain point attributes start to be effected. Maybe they could add energy drinks ( potions ). that subtract from fatigue.
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby IJBall » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:50 pm

dbgager wrote:Along with Hunger and Thirst maybe Fatigue should be added also. This would even increase the strategy if sleep was required. Possibly even to the point that as fatigue goes up past a certain point attributes start to be effected. Maybe they could add energy drinks ( potions ). that subtract from fatigue.

Let's just say you're not the only person who's suggested this... ;)

I actually don't think it'd be that hard to implement - there are already Hunger and Thirst status bars: a "Fatigue" status bar could be set up much the same way. I think the best choice is if it slowly counted down to "zero" over 24-hours in 'game time'. Perhaps eating food or drinking water could "grow" the Fatigue status bar by a small percentage. (If you want to get really intricate, drinking wine or alcohol could "shrink" the Fatigue bar by some percentage as well!)

Anyway, the one question here is - what happens when the Fatigue status bar hits zero?!

I think there are two obvious answers:

  1. Once the Fatigue status bar hits zero, you begin to lose Hit Points (progressively), in much the same way you do when the Hunger and Thirst bars hit zero.

  2. Once the Fatigue status bar hits zero, you immediately are forced into "camp" mode for a set amount of time (e.g. 6, 8, 10 or 12 hours), and even if you suffer a 'camp encounter' you are 'stunned'/'paralyzed' for, say, 10 turns (which in a number of cases means your character will die before "waking up").

Option #1 is a much easier solution, as the code that BW needs is already all there for Hunger/Thirst. But I find Option #1 to be "inelegant", and I much prefer Option #2 (if it's not too much trouble to code for).

Anyway, while I want to see a 'Fatigue' game option myself, I want to warn you not to be disappointed if it doesn't show up in Book III - I'm not sure how good the odds are that it will...
Last edited by IJBall on Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby dbgager » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:52 pm

I like your 2nd option. Forced sleep. Because if you get to fatigued that is what happens. This however brings up other problems as in some areas you cannot camp. Such as when to close to a enemy or NPC. Maybe instead of forced sleep, just a lowering of attributes much like a curse until you actually do find somewhere to sleep.

Also I do not think that there would be to many problems implementing this but they would have to put more food in the world because having to sleep would make the number of days in game time required to complete the game longer.
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby IJBall » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:12 am

dbgager wrote:I like your 2nd option. Forced sleep. Because if you get to fatigued that is what happens. This however brings up other problems as in some areas you cannot camp. Such as when to close to a enemy or NPC. Maybe instead of forced sleep, just a lowering of attributes much like a curse until you actually do find somewhere to sleep.

That's an interesting condition that I hadn't considered - hitting Fatigue status=zero either during combat, or when enemies are near.

I think in that case, the "penalty" should be the same as the "forced camped 'encounter'" - some set number of turns 'stunned'/'paralyzed' (but probably for a larger number of turns than the "forced camped 'encounter'" condition - something more like 20, or even 50, turns 'stunned'/'paralyzed'). Basically hitting Fatigue=zero either with enemies near or during combat should result in almost certain death for your character (unless you're lucky enough to be 'stunned'/'paralyzed' for 20-50 turns when facing a particularly weak foe).
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby vdweller » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:46 am

I would go for one more side bar, maximum. There are lots of side-stats who would increase game strategy: Tireness, sanity, overall mood, days without taking a bath/backrub etc. But please do keep in mind that too many "crippling" bars in a game make it more look like a Sim game, not an RPG.

There's a difference between a game being realistic and a game being convincing. I'll go for the 2nd. Convincing doesn't have to compulsively try to recreate reality, but to give an overall feeling of atmosphere. Too many "realistic" factors in a game like Eschalon will cause the player to look more at the side of the screen where those bars are, rather than focusing on the world itself. And hell, who needs realism in a game where you move, then everything else moves, and in-between everyone is still, like in good old ADOM :)
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby IJBall » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:55 am

vdweller wrote:I would go for one more side bar, maximum. There are lots of side-stats who would increase game strategy: Tireness, sanity, overall mood, days without taking a bath/backrub etc. But please do keep in mind that too many "crippling" bars in a game make it more look like a Sim game, not an RPG.

There's a difference between a game being realistic and a game being convincing. I'll go for the 2nd. Convincing doesn't have to compulsively try to recreate reality, but to give an overall feeling of atmosphere. Too many "realistic" factors in a game like Eschalon will cause the player to look more at the side of the screen where those bars are, rather than focusing on the world itself. And hell, who needs realism in a game where you move, then everything else moves, and in-between everyone is still, like in good old ADOM :)

I've said it before, but I'll say it again just for clarity :) I advocate Fatigue being a Game Option, just like Hunger/Thirst - some of us would really like the option to play with Fatigue, while many others apparently would not, and would rather stick with the Book I/Book II system of being able to be endlessly awake.

But this is one of those request items that's been around since before Book II was released (or even announced?...), so there is definitely a sub-set of us that would like to have the Fatigue game-option. (And a game like Eschalon that has Day/Night times really lends itself to Fatigue being a part of the game...)

Anyway, I don't think there has been a request for any other Status Bar besides a Fatigue one, so I think you're probably safe from worries of a "Status Bar explosion"... ;)
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby KillingMoon » Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:36 pm

vdweller wrote:I would go for one more side bar, maximum. There are lots of side-stats who would increase game strategy: Tireness, sanity, overall mood, days without taking a bath/backrub etc. But please do keep in mind that too many "crippling" bars in a game make it more look like a Sim game, not an RPG.
It would certainly become more like a sim game. Keep in mind the opening post was talking about 'body management strategy', not game strategy. Not everyone is into 'body management strategy', it usually turns into doing set things at set moments. Eat 5 fruits a day, go to the gym 3 times a week, sleep at set times, do stretch exercizes at work... You can put it all in a game, but it are still chores.

Remember that no skill is required for resting, while already so much in Eschalon is tied to resting: hitpoints regeneration, weapon repair and finding ingredients for Alchemy.
Now there are suggestions for finding stones and managing a stamina bar through resting...
It's becoming a very, very cheap fix for all. Low on something? The solution is simple: just press the 'rest' button. But that's no strategy, folks.
Especially when pressing the 'rest' button would become the only solution for a problem it's becoming really problematic.

Is that really what the suggestion here is about? A stamina bar that goes automatically down, simply because of being awake, and in order to get it up again you need to sleep, or perhaps buy a potion?
Sorry, I don't like being harsh, but the strategic depth I'm seeing here is zero.

I think I only know two games with a stamina bar. One of them is Dragon Age Origins. The bar there especially gets affected when you're using special weapon feats, so you can't use weapon feats continuously, but need a 'breather' inbetween. You can still fight normally when your stamina is down, but you don't have access to those stamina-expensive feats.
And the other game I know that uses it is... Eschalon Book II. It does the same thing to manage the use of feats. The stamina bar isn't visible, but it's still there.
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby IJBall » Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:45 pm

KillingMoon wrote:Is that really what the suggestion here is about? A stamina bar that goes automatically down, simply because of being awake, and in order to get it up again you need to sleep, or perhaps buy a potion?
Sorry, I don't like being harsh, but the strategic depth I'm seeing here is zero.

Cool. It's suggested as a game option. You don't have to play with it selected.

But some of us want to play with Fatigue as a game-contraint - having to camp in Dungeons would actually make dungeon-playthroughs (especially) more challenging, as you'd have to be more careful about food-management, and you wouldn't just be able to 'hack & slash' through a long dungeon without resting once.

But no one is saying that you have to play with that option if you don't want to...
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby Prismatic Maelstrom » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:32 pm

IJBall wrote:Anyway, the one question here is - what happens when the Fatigue status bar hits zero?!

What about your character's ToHit ability and damage deceasing over time along with enemies being able to hit you easier? And what about feats recharging at a slower pace or not at all?
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby IJBall » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:05 am

Jedi_Learner wrote:
IJBall wrote:Anyway, the one question here is - what happens when the Fatigue status bar hits zero?!

What about your character's ToHit ability and damage deceasing over time along with enemies being able to hit you easier? And what about feats recharging at a slower pace or not at all?

That's an interesting suggestion - we'll call that Option #3. :wink:

I like it - it actually makes sense. OTOH, I don't want adding this making so much extra work for BW that it becomes not worth it to him to implement Fatigue as an option.

Oh, and let me amend my earlier post: I think Fatigue should "countdown to zero" over 48 hours in gametime, not 24 hours - we all know from everyday life experience that you can stay up longer than 24 hours without there being really major ill-effects. But I think being awake 48 hours, and most people would start to become significantly impaired...
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby KillingMoon » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:32 am

IJBall wrote:
Jedi_Learner wrote:What about your character's ToHit ability and damage deceasing over time along with enemies being able to hit you easier? And what about feats recharging at a slower pace or not at all?
I like it - it actually makes sense. OTOH, I don't want adding this making so much extra work for BW that it becomes not worth it to him to implement Fatigue as an option.
What definitely makes sense, in my opinion then, is to have no access to your special weapon feats when having any sort of impairment.
I say 'impairment' instead of 'fatigue', because we also have illnesses in the game, and about them I feel the same thing.

A special weapon feat is something that would require more effort or more concentration, something that you wouldn't be able to manage anymore when not feeling well.
I actually don't know whether illnesses right now are already affect weapon feats, probably not directly, the feats came into the game afterwards, when the diseases were already there, and maybe the diseases haven't been adjusted.

It you want to introduce a feature like fatigue and make it successful it would need to interact with some existing features of the game. Yes, it should then affect your stats and abilities at a minimum. Perhaps there should be potions as well, not only potions that improve your condition, but also some that make it worse.
If, for example, a baddie would spray a fatigue gas around to impair you, then it would become a part of the gameplay, and make it interesting.

I realize I was outspoken in my criticism of a stamina bar earlier on, but my opposition is purely meant against the most simplistic way of integrating this feature.
Game design isn't that simple. You can't just stick something new onto an existing system.
If you don't integrate it in a convincing way, it's ultimately not going to satisfy anyone.
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby CrazyBernie » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:21 pm

Just to throw in my couple of coppers....

The only possible implementation of this "fatigue bar" that I would really see as manageable from a player and "fitting with the game" standpoint would be as a stamina bar as KM brought up. As he mentioned, it's already pseudo-implemented with the feats recharge. It might be a nice way to balance out the ability to "feat spam" as well as shore up the feats as a whole.

Rather than require the player to invest 10 points into a weapon skill to aquire a feat, the feat could be available from skill point 1, but instead have a stamina cost to use. Further points into a skill might reduce the cost to execute its feat, and stamina regeneration could be a function of strength and endurance. Basically, stamina would become the physical equivalent of magic points, and that might make it both easier to code and easier to implement.

Removing the ability to use feats when impaired? Eh, they're "feats" for a reason. I just don't see using fatigue as another way to impair the player as very necessary, when you've already got hunger and thirst. As was mentioned before, there isn't a little diamond floating above your character's head. 0_o
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby Prismatic Maelstrom » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:00 pm

Crazybernie wrote:I just don't see using fatigue as another way to impair the player as very necessary, when you've already got hunger and thirst.

Where you see impairment, others see challenge. Can you not see the challenge in such a thing?
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby KillingMoon » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:01 am

There's consensus that the food and drink requirement hasn't made the game much more challenging.
I believe you can give more challenge just using the existing bars. Put perhaps monsters in the game that target you when you've got food on you, but leave you alone when you haven't.
You can make food less widely available, instead perhaps have it more as optional quest reward. I believe all rewards in the game are fixed, you could give the player an option between two different kind of rewards.
The current 'create food' and 'create water' spells are very questionable.

The food and drink bars go down over time gradually, giving you a problem when they're depleted. I see little reason in adding a third one that does much the same thing (I think that's what CrazyBernie means as well). There are still so many options to give more depth in gameplay with the current food and drink requirement.
For me it's not about what you put in the game, but how you put it in the game.

I see more in a stamina bar as an extension or replacement of the current feat-refresh system. I'm not sure how, really. The feats are quite strong, anything that curbs it a little might be good, but I haven't got any ideas about this.
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Re: Fatigue would increase the body management strategy

Postby IJBall » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:31 pm

KillingMoon wrote:There's consensus that the food and drink requirement hasn't made the game much more challenging.
I believe you can give more challenge just using the existing bars. Put perhaps monsters in the game that target you when you've got food on you, but leave you alone when you haven't.
You can make food less widely available, instead perhaps have it more as optional quest reward. I believe all rewards in the game are fixed, you could give the player an option between two different kind of rewards.
The current 'create food' and 'create water' spells are very questionable.

I actually don't disagree with you on this - I always play with Food/Water enabled, but they really haven't added much "game complexity" to my playthroughs.

I think there are two or three ways to make Food/Water more "relevant" to game playthroughs (note: I think these are all already listed in the Book III 'Wishlist'...):

  1. Have food be "spoilable". Despite a post or two on these forums to the contrary, I have found no evidence that food "spoils" in Book II playthroughs. Now, I can see why Salted Fish or that equivalent of beef jerky won't spoil - but Apples, Yambi Berries, Meat Scraps, etc. should all "spoil" within 1-2 weeks of game-time. Just doing this means you wouldn't be able to "stockpile" nearly as much food before certain quests and dungeons, etc. (Related to this, the cost of "unspoilable" food like Salted Fish and the jerky should be significantly increased...)

  2. I totally agree with you about Draw Water and Create Food: they're too powerful as implemented in Book II. That's why I'd like to see those spells replaced with "Quench Thirst" and "Satiate Hunger" spells - i.e. these spells would just (very marginally) increase the Thirst or Hunger bars, not actually fill your Water Skin or create Food Items (that you can then turn around and sell!!) - I think the Wishlist has more details on this...

  3. I've also suggested adding to the game what you've basically suggested - 'Gremlins' that "steal" Food and Water from the player. (They could especially populate dungeons - added bonus, if you generally fail to "see" them (Spot Hidden-dependent, of course!) until they first attack!!) I think that would be a cool addition, and is right in line with "old school" RPGs like Ultima III.

  4. And, finally, there should maybe be a "cap" put on how much food you can carry (sidenote: maybe integrate this with a separate "Food Bag" inventory?...) - perhaps you shouldn't be allowed to carry more than, say, 20(?) Food Items total, even if the spell Create Food is left in Book III as it is in Book II...

  5. If the Create Food (and Draw Water) spell(s) is(are) left, as is, in Book III, then some 'cap' needs to be put on the spell(s) - e.g. maybe it's the kind of spell you can only cast once every 24-hours of game-time.

Anyway, these are just a few of the ideas I've had on the subject over the last couple of years...

The food and drink bars go down over time gradually, giving you a problem when they're depleted. I see little reason in adding a third one that does much the same thing (I think that's what CrazyBernie means as well). There are still so many options to give more depth in gameplay with the current food and drink requirement.
For me it's not about what you put in the game, but how you put it in the game.

I see more in a stamina bar as an extension or replacement of the current feat-refresh system. I'm not sure how, really. The feats are quite strong, anything that curbs it a little might be good, but I haven't got any ideas about this.

I'm not sure what you and CB have suggested in terms of Fatigue is maybe necessary - it's definitely not what I initially conceived for it.

But, OTOH, I don't object to tying lowering Fatigue in with Combat "acuity" over what I suggested either. Honestly, the idea that your ToHit & Armor Rating numbers keep plummeting towards zero the longer your 'Fatigue Bar' is at (or near?...) zero, a la what Jedi_Learner suggests, is definitely kind of a cool idea that appeals to me...

Basically, either way is fine to me. But I still wanted to see something Fatigue-related as a game-option, as this has been an issue that's been bugging me since I first played Book I...
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