nobody is going to like this camping suggestion...

[lochaber]

It's a bit atypical, and, admittedly, I found it somewhat frustrating at first, but I kinda like the way the automap is currently handled.

Having a mini-map is a great aid to most games, and it's come to be something people take for granted. Yet most of these same people will have trouble navigating a numbered street/numbered avenue city grid. Cartography/navigation/whatever is definitely a skill, and it's one that most people don't have any amount of.

Anyways, I think a check-box at the beginning is a pretty good way to address many of the arguments against the cartography skill/mini-map issue. Those who find it a major deal can check (or uncheck, whatever), and get their mini-map without having to spend skill points/spend gold on a trainer. Those of us who don't find it that big of deal, or are willing to work with it, can just continue.

I do think having a trainer at the beginning town (without a very difficult quest/etc.) would help a lot. perhaps even some sort of reduced trainer, where they can only train one level (or, say, get a level from studying maps in a library, whatever). Maybe also mention this in the character creation screen about the cartography skill description. This was one of the issues I had in the first game, I spent a point (3 actually..) on it, only to find out that with a bit of patience, I could have saved myself 3 skill points for the cost of 100 gold. (but, far from game breaking, or even ranting about, I just didn't spend the points on cartography w/ my next character).

[Kreador Freeaxe]

I don't know that it would, but I suspect that making the game easier to play might help. Some people want to have an easier experience than others do. Those people could spread the word to their friends that they enjoyed the game, etc.

Agreed. I can definitely see offering an optional easier experience leading more people to have a positive first exposure to the game.

If we want to coddle players with a free skill why not go the full mile and add a game rule where the player receives a 75% bonus to his or her damage and ToHit chance with the opposite for the enemies?

I really don't think it's about coddling. Thomas is looking at the responses and comments that come in on the games, and a not-insignificant number of people have complained that something they consider "basic game functionality" is treated as a skill that you need to put points into. For you and me, Cartography is a cool skill that we can have or not have as we choose. It adds a dimension to the game. Not so for enough other people that it is something BW needed to look at. Given the success and popularity of the game options in Book II, adding this as an option in Book III makes perfect sense. Will it attract more players if they know that they can have a mini-map without spending points on it? I doubt it, but who knows. Thomas's willingness to take the concerns of fans into account while developing the games, however, certainly wins him more fans and likely more sales.

[silverkitty]

Will it attract more players if they know that they can have a mini-map without spending points on it? I doubt it, but who knows.

Certainly no one will say "oooo, it has automap!" when reading the description on the web, but it IS more likely to convert demos into sales, or, rather, less likely to convert demos into angry rants about why it's missing "basic features every games has".

[severian]

How does everyone feel about this?

Also neutral, at least somewhat.

I don't like the idea of bypassing one of the games original features, but it seems popular, and I won't be using the option.

auto-mapping is kind of a standard for less ambitious players.
hardcore players may enable it.
most players like custom features - not only options for graphics and sound, but also for gameplay. I always give +1 for giving me some meaningful choices.

to sum up - if Basilisk plans to release demo, lack of automap could be a disappointment fore some new players.

[SpottedShroom]

If we want to coddle players with a free skill why not go the full mile and add a game rule where the player receives a 75% bonus to his or her damage and ToHit chance with the opposite for the enemies?

Why don't we make the game launch directly to the "you have died" screen? Even in a game where a lot of the fun is from being hard, not every feature that makes the game harder makes it more fun for everybody. Plenty of people find remembering where things are or drawing a map by hand tedious but still enjoy tough combat. Why shouldn't we give them the opportunity to enjoy the game to the utmost?

And in fact, I wouldn't be opposed to a "casual" setting with reduced enemy stats similar to what you sarcastically propose.

[Randomizer]

Old old school gamers had to make their own maps with pen and paper or memorize.

In the first few Ultima games that meant learning what a path looked like through a dungeon to achieve a goal instead of clearing and mapping the whole place. After a while you had enough money to buy amulets of ladder up and down to reduce the memorization.

Might and Magic 1 required mapping yourself until MM2 came out with automapping.

[Randomizer]

I hated when Spiderweb Games added to the map a marker for quest locations. All that was missing was a text box saying, "Stop exploring you idiot and go here."

[BasiliskWrangler]

I hated when Spiderweb Games added to the map a marker for quest locations. All that was missing was a text box saying, "Stop exploring you idiot and go here."

I would never put a quest compass in our games. Not that Jeff did anything wrong- it's his games, his audience. It's just never going to happen under my watch with anything Basilisk produces.

I've been reading a lot of other comments regarding the automap. I'm thinking more and more that it's not a good idea to put in the no Cartography/free automap rule. It just feels like betraying our original vision.

[silverkitty]

I've been reading a lot of other comments regarding the automap. I'm thinking more and more that it's not a good idea to put in the no Cartography/free automap rule. It just feels like betraying our original vision.

Then the thing to do is not to devote a big section of empty UI to it when you don't have the skill. That really makes people feeeeeeeel the deprivation.

[SpottedShroom]

What about including a quest compass? As I'm sure you know the quest compass is a common feature in mainstream games and is universally loved by all. I'm sure there are people out there that haven't bought a Basilisk Games product because it was missing such a basic feature. Adding a quest compass would surely increase sales and as you posted before offer an easier experience leading to more people to having a positive first exposure of Book III.

Do you like my idea SpottedShroom?

I think we can solve this problem with two versions: one as I mentioned above that starts on the "You have died" screen, and one that starts by playing the game-end cut scene. That ought to cover all of our bases.

[lochaber]

I hated when Spiderweb Games added to the map a marker for quest locations. All that was missing was a text box saying, "Stop exploring you idiot and go here."

I don't remember this particular off hand. I used to love the spiderweb games, I thought they were really well done, and just overall awesome. Although it wasn't intended, I really liked that you could play through most of them as a single character, instead of a party.

Up until Spiderweb started making games so that was no longer a possibility. I don't know what brought this on, as I don't think any aspect of it broke game balance, and I felt that a lot of people were drawn to the various games because there was the capability to play them as a single individual party.

Anyways, that's another bit about the eschalon series I like, is that it's a single player rpg. (too few of those...)



More on topic: as to the difficulty settings, I kinda like how it's managed in book II - many games I've played have an overly basic formulaic approach of 'all enemies have +x%hp' etc. I also like how there is the ingame bonus (the bit with a bonus to item generation, or whatever).

I feel that that initial start up screen with the checkboxes is a pretty adequate answer to potential player loss due to mechanics and what not. I also think that in some ways (restrictions on saving a game (loading isn't as much of a restriction, as you can just exit to main menu, etc....), seed numbers, using food/water or not, etc.), it actually can make the game very much more or less involved for the player.

meh.

[Necromis]

Ultimately I think you need to go with where your heart leads you Thom. Personally I wouldn't use the automap feature and agree that it does take away from the old school feel. I do also, on the other hand, agree that by adding it as an option, like you did with thirst/hunger, that it would probably enhance some peoples experience.

Some people here are griping about adding it, but I think that is rather selfish. Each person's experience will be different. It won't harm any of us that have been playing it w/o that option from the begining. It might even bring on board more sales from the more casual gamers. Granted if anyone really wants to add this to their play thru they can simply use the game editor that has already been created. Lots of us have used that for printing out the maps to post on here, or for other options of putting us somewhere we should be just to explore a weee bit more.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Apart from selfish is there anything else you want to call me?

He didn't really call you selfish, just the idea that someone would complain about being added is rather selfish, but I don't think that is accurate. These are all opinions, no need for anyone to get worked up.

I have decided to go back to the original idea for Book III: there will be no automatic automap rule, but I will add something very early in the game to help people get a basic map going without spending a bunch of points on it. If everything develops as planned, the automap will have increased upper-level details, making it more valuable to people who spend the time/money/points to develop it out further.

[IJBall]

I have decided to go back to the original idea for Book III: there will be no automatic automap rule, but I will add something very early in the game to help people get a basic map going without spending a bunch of points on it...

Might that be something like this?...

[SpottedShroom]

Heck, even having the Cartography skill book as a set item in the first shop would probably be sufficient.