The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by Randomizer »

The ending may explain what has happened in the world and with you,
[+] SPOILER
but as the prisoner in Atrox Deep says,
"Set the world on fire, one of them's a liar!" You are given two conflicting stories about what is going to happen and you have to decide who is the liar.Is helping the Orakur going to create a time loop that will destroy the universe or is it going to change the timeline into a new reality where they are never created.
[+] SPOILER
I was kind of unhappy not knowing who is telling the truth and what will happen to the world. There is of course what lies beyond the great western ocean.
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by hakea »

The only consistent truth at the end is that
[+] SPOILER
you feel world weary and battle worn and that you like the idea of buying a boat and getting away from it all. You still have to make your own mind up about some questions that you would have liked to get more cast iron answers to.

At age 67 I can attest that this is actually very close to real life. The main difference that I've found so far is that I bought a motorbike instead of a boat. :) Otherwise, being left slightly unclear about it all and having to choose your own preferred version of events is entirely realistic.... :wink:
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by helivoy »

If the world is to come to an end regardless of the specific outcome (Erebor or Malkur), going to the Western Lands won't avail you.
For I come from an ardent race
That has subsisted on defiance and visions.
-------------------------------------
Starship Reckless
To Seek Out New Life
The Other Half of the Sky
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by SpottedShroom »

[+] SPOILER
I like the ending. There's a twist with the suggestion that Malkur was the "good guy" all along, but it's not confirmed. Personally, regardless of his motives, I don't think you can call Malkur "good" - he's done many unpleasant things to many people. Remember Wendy and Julian in Book II? My perspective is that we have no objective way of knowing whether Malkur's plan will destroy the world or save it, so we might as well decide based on the characters of the people involved.
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by MyGameCompany »

I agree PM.
[+] SPOILER
Both endings still left me with some questions. Was Malkur telling the truth? Was my character really in league with him before he lost his memory? It seemed odd that a character that used mind manipulation, drove people insane in Book 2, and seemed so malevolent was actually the good guy. It was a good plot twist, but felt inconsistent with what I learned about him in Book 2. On the other hand, Book 1 starts with a quick glimpse of an Orakur before you wake up in Thaermore, which in my mind tends to lend a bit of credibility to Malkur's version of events.

I played both endings (siding with Erebor and Malkur), and they both left the character lost and confused at the end. Neither ending answered all my questions. In the case of siding with Erebor, did the Orakur plan work or did it end up causing the time paradox and destroying everything? I never found out. In the case of Malkur, my character walked away from that too - presumably, Malkur just went back to his own time. But what happened to the other Orakur? Did he take them with him back to his own time, or did he leave them to die in the cataclysm along with everyone else?

Also, how did Erebor learn the stuff about the Orakur that he revealed in his first letter? And how were the dwarves involved?

Was the "brother" in Book 1 really my brother, or just a fellow Crius Vindica member? How does he fit in with Malkur and my character, assuming Malkur was telling the truth?

I would have liked some of these holes filled at the end.
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by Stardragon »

I have to admit, I felt very let down by the ending, and indeed by most of the back half of the game (everything after getting through the hidden pass). It felt short and rushed, almost a not-quite-afterthought: the maps didn't seem to have quite the care taken with them that the rest had, it was mostly empty space with a few skirmishes, and the climax itself was about as anticlimactic as a wet firework on Bonfire Night. (Though the encounter with the fellow on the east coast was a sweetly tragic one, and a very nice touch.)

I've enjoyed playing Book III, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I hoped for more. A romp back across the entire world, increasingly bitter fights against old foes (and not just lined up in rows as they were), revisiting old places - and, maybe, that island in Book I that was planned but never implemented... For a series that had such an epic strain, it seemed to go out more with a sigh than a bang. And leaving things on a cliff-hanger?... no, no, no. Admittedly, given the player's actions it's possible to know what's supposed to happen, but since we don't get to see it there are just too many loose ends.

As a game dev myself (in and among) I know it's hard to build a game of this quality and scope with such a small team. But I feel, nonetheless, rather deflated and let down.
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by Solar »

I do agree that the ending did feel rushed, literally, advancing too quickly.
[+] SPOILER
After getting to the guy in the dungeon with the massive infodump I had no idea it was already going to be the end. I feel there should've been SOMETHING before Malkur appeared again and there was a disappointingly easy boss fight (at least when siding against him, I've yet to play the other end) which already concluded the game. Having to locate the fourth Crux instead of the dragon just having it might have been just the right amount of buildup.
That said, for me it's not so much about the ending itself (I did like how some things were left ambiguous) but about the game being too short.
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by munster »

The ending is quite unusual, in that we don't get the neatly tied-up resolution we might expect.
[+] SPOILER
Basically, it comes down to a choice: do you permit the destruction of everyone you know and the thousands/millions of others you don't know, who exist right now, for the sake of future but as yet non-existant people? You're told that permitting the cataclysm now will mean that the world survives and life will re-establish itself once again, as it has done in countless cycles of destruction and renewal.

Your decision - or at least, this is how I justified it to myself - doesn't even depend on 'is Malkur telling the truth or not?' One thing everyone on both sides agrees upon is that a cataclysm is imminent and it will destroy all life currently on the face of Eschalon. Do you let this happen or do you try to stop it? That's the problem you have to solve.

Even if Malkur is correct, and the solution of the Orakur in blocking the volcano means that the physical stresses on the world will tear it apart so that it is completely destroyed, rather than only wiping out life on the surface, that doesn't change your immediate dilemma: do the ends justify the means?

Personally, I find it hard to trust Malkur given all he has done: even in Book III, the captain who ran his ship aground and delivered his crew over to be slaughtered did it at the urging of Malkur - the voice constantly in his head, driving him mad, as recounted in the logbook. Then again, my character has done equally reprehensible things in the name of the 'greater good'; not even talking about the Taurax and the goblins I've killed, back in Book II I slaughtered my way through Hammerlorne Mine to steal the treasure of the Dwarven Lord, and the Dwarves are allies on the side of 'good'.

I've lied, tricked, stolen and killed on my way to the end of the quest. An outside observer could just as easily say I was the bad guy instead of Malkur.

It's a fascinating dilemma; on the one hand, you could say that we (present day humans) would never exist if it hadn't been for the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_event that (possibly) caused the extinction of the dinosaurs. On the other hand, if you were a sentient/sapient dinosaur alive at the time, would you agree to permit the asteroid impact that wiped out all your species on the assurance that some day millions of years later, a whole new race (not even the same species as you) would arise?
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by Jaymann »

I don't even know who Malkur is, I just wanted to kill him. :)

I preferred the ending to Book II, where they said it was nearly impossible to kill all the guys in that last room. So of course I had to do it.
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by IJBall »

Jaymann wrote:I preferred the ending to Book II, where they said it was nearly impossible to kill all the guys in that last room. So of course I had to do it.
I still think, overall, I still prefer Book I and its ending. You could easily stop the series right there, and consider everything to basically be a triumph with Book I's close.

Indeed, that's another jumping off point for future Modding - redo Book I, and then take the story in a totally different direction post-Book I. I think there are a lot of possibilities there...
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by hakea »

Pretty much every game of this type that I've ever played (and I've played a heck of a lot over 25+ years, starting with text only games on 5" floppies…) has basically the same ending. It goes something like this:

"Congratulations, your valiant efforts have finally saved the world from the Huge Cataclysmically Evil Naughtiness that you've been battling for last few weeks. It's time to tear your eyes from the computer, visit the real world for a day or two, and then start the familiar quest for another half decent game…."

This seemed like an attempt to leave us thinking for a bit longer, and giving us more options, more shades of grey, etc. Unfortunately, we all get plenty of that in real life. So I felt that the multiple endings unfortunately came across as a brave attempt at being different that sadly fell flat on its face. As others have said, the whole final section felt rushed and inclusive - as if the designer(s) couldn't make their mind up about how to wrap it up, so tossed it back to the player.

Every successful story needs a cracking beginning and a good ending. If you're going to be vague, obscure or wishy washy, do it in the middle not at the end!

I feel sure that a more solid conclusion would be a generally popular choice for most gamers. :)
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by Palog »

Many players bashed the end of ME3 but myself I found it very good and at least not one of those happy end "you brave hero saved the world get married and have ton of child".

In a way the Eschalon end alos avoid the clichés BUT for me it doesn't works at all. There's two elements not working:
- The first is from a writing perspective and effect of reader/player. The final manipulation explanation is thrown at the end an no clues on it was thrown on it all along the story. It creates the feeling of an artificial end.
- The second is the dual choice just doesn't work well at all. There's clearly an evil side and a good side all along the story and there's many rather concrete elements to reinforce this feeling. And suddenly at end the evil side becomes a good side without anything to explain and justify it. It just doesn't work.

EDIT: Another problem is relative to the main character, he ends without ever knowing his past, and who he was, it's sort of unsatisfying. It fits a requirement of a hero allowing player "rolepay" ie no personality, no story, no history, but it's still unsatisfying.

Apart those problems making the end mostly fails, the final dual choice could have been a good one, and a TV series used the dilema multiple time and in my opinion quite well, it's Smallville where many time the hero has to face an impossibility, should sacrifice someone to save many people or the future but refuse and want find the impossible solution. The game makes you face to the same dilema, save the future and sacrifice all you friends and present world, or save your friends and the present world... and give up. :-) Yeah clearly the Eshalon hero isn't Superman. :-)
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by hakea »

Palog wrote: It creates the feeling of an artificial end.
You nailed it there. It felt completely artificial and tacked on. Any sense of a great good or evil, or of a final revelation to a tightly constructed story, simply evaporated leaving it looking all rather lame. More like a piece of pop music that is simply faded out at the end instead of a grand finish to a well constructed symphony. Which was a pity. :(

It was a good very series with a heck of a lot to recommend it, and good value for money too, so I think it deserved a better conclusion. ( I wonder if it's too late to come up with something better written in a patch?)

Still, can't win 'em all… :)
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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by Vroqren »

I disagree. I feel that rather than it being a piece of pop that fades out opposed to the end of a grand symphony, I feel that it's like Holst's The Planet's Jupiter. You never hear the end of a chord progression or segment. Rather, it's left open to allow room for creativity and a different form of intensity.

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Re: The Ending... [Heavy Spoilers]

Post by Stardragon »

Vroqren wrote:I disagree. I feel that rather than it being a piece of pop that fades out opposed to the end of a grand symphony, I feel that it's like Holst's The Planet's Jupiter. You never hear the end of a chord progression or segment. Rather, it's left open to allow room for creativity and a different form of intensity.
Actually, Jupiter resolves nicely at the end of the movement, but I do acknowledge there are a couple of sections of it that don't, including the lyric theme that most people recognise. :-)

I think that what was done with the story was brave and different, and I'm not criticising Mr Riegsecker for making the attempt. Not at all! I just think it could have been done better.

I think in another thread he mentioned that Malkur's face was seen right at the start of Book I. It probably was, but there are two problems here: first, even with my good memory, I don't remember that (it being years since I played E1), and second, new players who begin with Book III aren't going to know that. If it's a major clue to the actual story, it needed to be played up more.

Oh, I don't know. I've loved these darned games since the day I first played E1. It's so nice, refreshing, to have a little game like this, single-player, turn-based, that does have a good story, that's been put together by someone who has faith in his market and an obvious love for the genre. I'm really looking forward to what's next, I admit. :-)
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