ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by SpottedShroom » March 22nd, 2014, 11:42 am

Prismatic Maelstrom wrote:Why does Malkur kill Shina? Wouldn't it make sense for him to torture Shina for information? He might know the location of the Crux of Terra, and if not he would know where the other Orakur are who would know.

And why would Malkur have his prison on the path to the Crux Chamber? He did after all want you to reach the top. Shina could of told all but didn't. Perhaps Shina wasn't real? An illusion? I think after work I'll be reading his dialogue again...
Shina's dialog certainly doesn't jive with what we learn in Book III. Either it is lying to you for its own reasons, it's a plant by Malkur, or BW didn't have his plot entirely straight when writing Book II. It would make sense for Malkur to try to dissuade you from destroying the two crux stones in case you were able to do that before he showed up.

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by SpottedShroom » March 22nd, 2014, 11:45 am

Prismatic Maelstrom wrote:If you really were working with Malkur, why didn't you write a letter to yourself to explain the situation you find yourself in? Karamiklan could of handed you the letter before Malkur makes his appearance.

I think I'll be running out of questions in a few days...
Would you really have believed a "letter from yourself" delivered by an ally of Malkur?

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by IJBall » March 22nd, 2014, 4:32 pm

There's a fourth possibility: everyone is wrong, and the "cataclysm" can be prevented.

That's the interpretation that I'd rather go with, and would also be the obvious preference of a lot of people who are thinking about 'Modding' a post-Book III scenario.

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by Randomizer » March 22nd, 2014, 5:17 pm

There is also the view that preventing this Cataclysm will result in a later event that will fracture the world.

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by Lord_P » March 23rd, 2014, 12:13 am

No, no, no, no, no. This is Mass Effect 3 all over again! :evil:

Yes, the ending is a bit lacking, but adding a third option that ends in rays of sunshine and flowers is stupid. Yes, an ending where you reason the two sides to work together would be nice, but only as a really hard to achieve ending. Why have an ending where you have to pick the smaller evil, when you have an ending where everything goes well?

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by SpottedShroom » March 23rd, 2014, 9:34 pm

Prismatic Maelstrom wrote: This is the "special cargo" that you find underneath the Seawarden's Guild. Where was the ship heading to before the captain was influenced and crashed the ship? Is this part of the craft that Malkur says he'll summon if you side with him at the end or is it something else?
I always assumed it was his time machine, although it's implied that it's not finished yet because it's missing the gear widget. Since the widgets are intended to get through Omentor, though, that doesn't make much sense.

In any case, I can't see what else he would have his followers building with his advanced technology that wouldn't have come up before the end of the game.

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by IJBall » March 24th, 2014, 10:46 am

Prismatic Maelstrom wrote:Assuming that Malkur is telling the truth...

Why doesn't he confront Korren and Erubor about the coming cataclysm? He convinced you. Why this elaborate scheme of death and destruction?
Because it isn't coming!

Malkur has used his 'Jedi mind tricks' to convince all of the seers and soothsayers in Eschalon of a coming cataclysm that isn't going to happen!!

He's done all this because he just wants a shortcut "home" for himself, and he doesn't care if he strands the other Orakur there, and kills a whole bunch of innocents along the way, to make it happen!

HA!
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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by IJBall » March 24th, 2014, 1:25 pm

Prismatic Maelstrom wrote:Then why does Karamiklan tell you about the nature of the Orakur and the coming cataclysm? For the lulz?
Maybe Malkur is powerful enough to "trick" him too?...

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by SpottedShroom » March 24th, 2014, 3:49 pm

IJBall wrote: Malkur has used his 'Jedi mind tricks' to convince all of the seers and soothsayers in Eschalon of a coming cataclysm that isn't going to happen!!

He's done all this because he just wants a shortcut "home" for himself, and he doesn't care if he strands the other Orakur there, and kills a whole bunch of innocents along the way, to make it happen!
This is all a bit too neat, if you ask me. The whole point of the Book III ending is having to make a difficult choice with no definite right answer.

Although a point in the favor of believing Malkur: why would he want to get home so badly? By all accounts, the post-apocalypse future is pretty awful. It does make sense if he really is going to sacrifice himself to prevent the Orakur from traveling back in time in the first place, though.

Oh, and there's also the detail that arguing about "changing" time is by definition irrational. Change is when something is in one state at time X and in another at time Y, which makes no sense when the thing is time. You can talk about branching timelines or closed-loop time travel, but Back to the Future-style is nonsensical.

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by munster » March 26th, 2014, 9:24 am

Part of the problem is that there are two cataclysms.

The first, the one everyone (Malkur, Erubor, Karamiklan, the Wizard in Old Moonrise, the other Orakur) agrees on is the opening of the Great Rift in Crakamir which will result in a mega-volcano releasing clouds of dust and ash and radioactive candecium. This will lead to the destruction of life on the surface of Eschalon, and the gradual mutation of the Dwarves trapped underground into the Orakur.

This is the event the Orakur want to avoid, by relieving the tectonic pressure and avoiding the huge eruption. This will mean that the events leading to the evolution of the Orakur will not happen (and that's the time-loop paradox, which is a different problem). Evidence for this is (a) nobody seems to be disputing that "This will never happen, Malkur is lying" and (b) the machine the wizard in Old Moonrise built, something like a cross between an orrery and a seismograph, so he is providing some kind of empirical evidence to back up his forecast, not just a theory that could be the result of mental manipulation by Malkur.

The disagreement comes in with regard to the second cataclysm, the one Malkur (and Karamiklan) claim will occur if the great volcanic eruption is prevented. He claims that if the pressure is not permitted to be relieved, then the stresses will eventually tear the entire world apart and everything will die with no hope of any creature surviving because the planet will be in pieces. The other Orakur and Erubor claim this is false.

This is the problem you have to decide on: is Malkur right or is Erubor right? Again, because we never see any other Orakur (apart from Shina, and that is very problematic because was the encounter in Talushorn real, was it an illusion, was this more or Malkur's manipulation?), we don't really get independent corroboration either way.

(1) The whole thing is a fairystory and what's really going on is a kind of perverse version of the Mage Games between Erubor and Malkur. But if that's so, then who or what are the Orakur, who founded Crius Vindica, and could Erubor and Malkur really be a couple of centuries old as they would need to be to set the whole thing in motion?

(2) Malkur is right and by preventing the cataclysm now, you are only postponing the inevitable and setting up the conditions for the second, worse, cataclysm which will destroy the entire planet. The trouble with this is that we have to take his word for it (not having any independent scientific knowledge of our own) and the behaviour he's exhibited to date (the latest being the captain of the ship, whom he influenced to deliberately crash his vessel, and had his minions who took over the Seawarden's Guild murder the crew and probably the captain as well - I'm assuming that's the body of the man dressed in captain's clothes you find in the Guild building) isn't too reassuring about him being the good guy. Maybe he's just extremely cold-blooded about what needs to be done, but he tends to not mind the collateral damage a bit too easily, e.g by Maggot's letter, 'the Boss' is promising the minions that they'll all be kings in the new world, when he knows they'll all be dead in the eruption he is trying to bring about.

(3) Erubor and the Orakur are right, and preventing the cataclysm now will not alone save the lives of everyone living, it will not lead to the dire outcome Malkur is forecasting, which means Malkur is lying and really is only trying to get back to his own time at the expense of his fellow Orakur. The problem here is no independent corroboration either - you don't meet any Orakur, you only have Erubor and the rest of Crius Vindica's word for it.

Seeing as how you wiped your own memory, you don't know if you really have been working for Malkur all along, or is that a lie? Have you been working for Crius Vindica, or is that another manipulation by Erubor? So it comes down to this: are you indeed a traitor to Crius Vindica, whether for good reasons or not?

My own personal choice, and I'm not saying it's the right one or that anyone else should choose it, is this: the one fact we seem to know for certain is that something bad is going to happen soon. The eruption of the Great Rift will kill all life on the surface of Eschalon. So I chose to save the lives of those living now, rather than the potential lives of the future who haven't yet even come into existence.

That still doesn't mean we know who's lying, who's telling the truth (if anyone is) and we won't know until long afterwards, when the second cataclysm that destroys the planet happens (or not) and by then, our character will be long dead. Whatever choice we make, we have to live with it and the uncertainty about did we do the right thing or not.

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by BasiliskWrangler » April 2nd, 2014, 9:07 pm

Prismatic Maelstrom wrote:
Prismatic Maelstrom wrote:Malkur says you took the serum to erase your memories so Erubor and Korren wouldn't know you had talked to him. Erubor, Korren and Lilith say you took the serum to erase your memories so Malkur couldn't find you.

If you were going to erase your memories anyway, what was the point in Malkur talking to you?
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I think, as always, it depends on who/what you want to believe. I wrote the first draft of the story as Malkur being "the enemy". The second draft I wrote as Malkur being your friend. Then, I merged the drafts together in an attempt to satisfy both conditions.

Why does Malkur talk to you? It was the easiest (perhaps only) way to reveal that there was a possibility you and him had worked together. Internally, perhaps Malkur wanted to make things right with you before the end. Or perhaps he feared a fight with you if you did not hand over the Crux stones willingly. Or, perhaps he was playing mind games with you to the very end.
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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by Leezar » April 3rd, 2014, 3:49 am

Fatal flaw in the storyline;

You say you must prevent the volcano eruption, because it will release candecium dust, which is radioactive.

However, radioactivity cause microscopic trauma and celllular malfunction leading to necrosis or if you survive or in lower doses and over time mutations in the DNA, leading to senescence, scar tissue and/or cancer.

However!

The "healing spell" and "cure poison" taken together must be able cure necrosis since some poisons are necrotizing agents. The "cure disease" spell must be able to repair DNA-damage, since many pathogens, especially viruses, cause DNA-damage.

Which begs the question; why not simply build a couple of arks, go to seas during the eruption to survive the blast zone, and then train and employ a regiment of druids and vicars to continously heal the population, fighting back the radiation damage?
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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by Kreador Freeaxe » April 3rd, 2014, 6:41 am

On the one side, I know a lot of people wanted actual "closure" from the end of the trilogy. On the other side, I think that BW took a much braver and riskier route by giving us an open ending. The Crux quest is completed and they have been reunited one way or another, but did we do the right thing? We may never really know.

I would have liked a bit more warning that we were at the final end-game bit of the game, though, as I'd left several areas unexplored and several quests dangling. That's a place where it wouldn't be bad for BW to put a message saying that "You have a sense that passing through these gates may be a one way trip. Are you sure you're ready?"
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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by munster » April 3rd, 2014, 11:54 am

I agree about that; the ending is a great attempt to do something new and different on BW's end. Instead of getting the prepared answer about who is the good guy and who is the bad guy, or getting the 'heroic' ending, we have to take responsibility for our decision and our choice.

We have to own our decision: whether we decided Malkur was right or Erubor was, we made our choice and acted accordingly, and we may never know if it was true or all a mage game. That's a brave way to end a game for an indie developer to follow, instead of going for the tried and trusted "And here's where you get the gold star and pat on the back".

The only quibble is that the end battle is a bit rushed and muddled, and like others on here, I would have preferred to face Malkur directly so that I could return the favour of being blasted with a plasma wand in the Book II ending :wink:

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Re: ESCHALON TRILOGY - Q&A (SPOILERS)

Post by IJBall » April 3rd, 2014, 12:21 pm

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:I would have liked a bit more warning that we were at the final end-game bit of the game, though, as I'd left several areas unexplored and several quests dangling. That's a place where it wouldn't be bad for BW to put a message saying that "You have a sense that passing through these gates may be a one way trip. Are you sure you're ready?"
That's a very good idea - such a (grid-scripted) warning should be added to the game either before entering Alundar's(sp?) dungeon, or before unlocking the second 'gate' just before meeting the dragon. Something along the lines of:
You have a sense that passing through these gates may be a one way trip, and there will be no turning back from here. Are you sure you're ready?...
Very good idea...

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