Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

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Arcanod
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Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Arcanod »

(I did my best to write that post in english, but some parts may be hardly intelligible... I’ll reformulate if needed. In case there are some french players, I add a french version of the text at the bottom. Also, I’m not sure if it is correct, but I used the term ‘safe’ to designate those large chests located in the Blackwater depository.)

Like many players (if not everyone), I killed Lilith by pure curiosity after learning she was a member of the Depository, in order to retrieve her key and see what was in her safe. And one has to admit that the safe in question contains a superb sword (I like swords) - perhaps the most powerful in the game (intuition confirmed later by reading the forum). In doing so, I opened without a second thought the door to a possible world that I hastened to close by reloading a previous save, after having tasted his wonders.

Following this revelation, the challenge is therefore to recover Lilith’s amulet key without having to kill her, or having a good reason to do so, or by convincing her to bring back her treasure for us (there is few clients at Repository : that the guardian does not react to the fact that the same person exposes to him two different keys is indeed implausible). The trouble is that nothing indicates that she is an evil character, and nothing in the dialogues allows any investigation. So to kill her is absolutely not obvious.

Some clever guys made sure to reach her house with a whole battalion of giant wasps going after them ; it’s tolerable at a pinch, but not really prestigious... They have also "demonstrated" by this method that Lilith did not appear at all to be allergic to wasps, as opposed to what she said when she gave us the quest about slaying the queen. Therefore the lady would be a little liar, but let's be serious : is this a sufficient reason to commit murder ? Certainly not.

So the idea would be to lead her up to reveal during a conversation what her safe holds (remember we're not supposed to know what is in there ; perhaps there’s only rare woman accessories !), although the rules stipulate that two members of the Repository should never communicate with each other on that matter. Currently, I haven’t come far enough in the game to rediscover my identity completely (I'm stuck at the first level of Shadowmirk ...), but this may be a means to achieve our objective. It would be about explaining her that I am the only one who is able to stop the war (better : to save humanity) and asking her if she owns – by any chance – something that could help me in my epic destiny – such as equipment or other...

We can assume that two conditions must be met so she decides to give us her treasure, proving that way our sincerity and our ability to translate words into actions :
  • Already possess a certain power (experience, equipment, skills, achievements already made, having met important NPC, key information obtained about the plot ...) ;
    Prove that we are the "chosen one" who can stop the war by eliminating Gramuk (who is controlling, at least to some extent, the actions of the Chancellor, yes !). For this, we have the "Crux of Ages"...
At that point, it would become difficult to display in game such narrative possibilities, but I think that more choices would still have been welcome. We are left to speculate : due to a lack of information provided to the player, we just can imagine any reason to believe that Lilith is evil, and integrate these arbitrary reasons into the game to make them, somehow, real and legitimate. After all, if we showed Lilith the artifact directly (or more cautiously : if we placed it first in a safe place then teleport with her to that location through a portal spell so she wouldn’t ba able to recognize the place), maybe she would try to do something ?... Then we could track her to check if she does not betray us, or inject her the same serum that caused us amnesia (with a smaller dose, if possible ...) after she agreed to bring us the sword...

Certainly, this is a situation that would be interesting to play in a traditional role-playing game, but here, there is clearly no solution : if you want the sword, then you must kill Lilith. Period. For my part, I am not yet decided (I’m waiting for going deeper in the game, too).

Here were some thoughts that I wanted to share with you. Sorry if everything is a bit messy.

--------------------
(french version)

Comme de nombreux joueurs (pour ne pas dire tout le monde), j’ai tué Lilith par pure curiosité, après avoir appris qu’elle était membre du Depository, afin de récupérer sa clef et voir ce que contenait son coffre-fort. Et force est de constater que le coffre en question contient une superbe épée (j’aime les épées) – peut-être même la plus puissante du jeu (intuition confirmée plus tard en lisant le forum). Ce faisant, j’ai ouvert sans arrière-pensée la porte d’un monde possible que je me suis empressé de refermer en rechargeant ma partie, après en avoir goûté les merveilles.

Suite à une telle révélation, la difficulté consiste donc à récupérer la clef de Lilith sans avoir à la tuer, ou en ayant une bonne raison de le faire, ou encore en la convaincant d’aller chercher son trésor pour nous (il y a peu de clients au Repository : que le conservateur ne réagisse pas au fait qu’un même individu lui expose deux clefs différentes apparaît en effet peu crédible). L’ennui est que rien n’indique qu’il s’agit d’un personnage maléfique, et rien dans les dialogues ne permet une quelconque investigation. La tuer ne va donc absolument pas de soi.

Certains petits malins ont fait en sorte de rameuter chez elle tout un bataillon de guêpes géantes sous le prétexte un peu facile qu’ils étaient pourchassés ; c’est viable à la rigueur, mais pas prestigieux pour deux sous… Ils ont aussi « démontré » par cette méthode que Lilith ne semblait pas du tout allergique aux guêpes, contrairement à ce qu’elle affirmait au moment de nous confier la quête consistant à éliminer la reine. La dame serait donc une petite menteuse, mais soyons sérieux : est-ce une raison suffisante pour commettre un meurtre ? Assurément pas.

L’idée serait donc de l’amener à révéler au cours d’une conversation le contenu de son coffre-fort (n’oublions pas que nous ne sommes pas censés savoir ce qui s’y trouve ; peut-être ne contient-il qu’une toilette des plus raffinée !), bien que les règles stipulent que deux membres du Repository ne doivent jamais communiquer entre eux sur le sujet. Actuellement, je ne suis pas arrivé assez loin dans le jeu pour redécouvrir totalement mon identité (bloqué que je suis au premier niveau de Shadowmirk…), mais cela sera peut-être un moyen de parvenir à nos fins. Il s’agirait de lui expliquer que je suis le seul à pouvoir mettre un terme à la guerre (mieux : à sauver l’humanité) et à lui demander si elle ne possède pas – à tout hasard – quelque chose qui puisse m’aider dans mon épique destinée – équipement ou autre…

On peut supposer que deux conditions doivent être remplies pour qu’elle décide de nous léguer son bien, prouvant par là notre bonne foi et notre capacité à traduire nos paroles en actions :
  • Posséder déjà un certain pouvoir (expérience, équipement, compétences, exploits déjà accomplis, rencontre de PNJ importants, informations clé obtenues sur l’intrigue…) ;
    Prouver que nous sommes bien l’ « élu » capable d’arrêter la guerre en éliminant Gramuk (qui contrôle, au moins dans une certaine mesure, les actes du Chancelier, eh oui !). Pour cela, nous disposons du « Crux of Ages »…

Nous en arrivons à un point où il devient difficile de gérer à l’écran de telles subtilités narratives, mais je pense que plus de choix aurait tout de même été le bienvenu. Nous en sommes réduits à spéculer : faute d’informations délivrées au joueur, nous ne pouvons qu’imaginer des raisons de croire que Lilith est mauvaise, et intégrer arbitrairement ces raisons au jeu pour les rendre, d’une certaine façon, réelle et légitimes. Après tout, si l’on montrait directement l’artefact à Lilith (ou plus prudemment : qu’on le place au préalable en un lieu sûr et qu’on s’y téléporte avec elle par un sort de portail pour qu’elle ne reconnaisse pas l’endroit), peut-être tenterait-elle quelque chose ?… Il s’agirait alors de la pister pour vérifier qu’elle ne nous trahit pas, ou de lui injectuer le même sérum qui nous a rendu amnésique (en dose plus réduite, si possible…) après qu’elle ait accepter de nous apporter l’épée…

Assurément, c’est une situation qui serait intéressante à jouer dans un jeu de rôle traditionnel, mais dans le cas qui nous préoccupe, il n’existe manifestement pas de solution miracle : si l’on veut l’épée, il faut tuer Lilith. Point barre. Pour ma part, je ne me suis pas encore décidé (j’attends aussi d’être plus loin dans le jeu).

Voilà les quelques pensées que je souhaitais partager avec vous. Désolé si tout est un peu brouillon.
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Kreador Freeaxe
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

If you talk to the right person, you are given a reason to kill Lilith. Whether it is sufficient reason for you is a character decision. ;)

And, yes, given the nature of pre-programmed computer RPGs, it's difficult to allow for too many variations in the narrative of the story. I think Lilith trying to get me killed so she doesn't have to bother with big wasps is a reason to dislike her, possibly enough to kill her, but you may role play your character a bit more as a good guy.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Painted Lady »

Maybe it's because I'm also a female, but it took me three times playing the game through before I could bring myself to kill Lilith. It really bothered me to whack her.......
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by sillek »

In my only completion of the game, I completed every quest (in the journal) except for killing Lilith. I was (and usually do) going for a good ending/good guy and thought that killing her would be "bad".

Sort of like how I don't try to intimidate people. WHich let to me not completing the Darkford quest until I had cleared out everything outside of Crakamir and couldn't figure out where the key to open the gate was. (Because you have to intimidate the guard to get in).

I also could not rid the deviant who wanted her dead, as he was in the middle of an inn and I would be seen.

I didn't realize that this was a normal quest and I would not be labeled "Bad" or "evil" by the game like I would in NWN or Jade Empire by doing certain things.
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Kreador Freeaxe
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

Of course, you never NEED to open the gate into Crakamir, as there are two other ways in (well, three, but you can't use the third one until you've already been to Crakamir). Just as you never need to complete the kill Lilith quest.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by CrazyBernie »

Rather than kill Lilith, I've given her a new identity. If she was based on the background I've fleshed her out with... there's no way we'd be able to kill her in Book I... :mrgreen:

Hmmm... I should probably get around to finishing her story... *sigh*
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by King_ov_Death »

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:Of course, you never NEED to open the gate into Crakamir, as there are two other ways in (well, three, but you can't use the third one until you've already been to Crakamir). Just as you never need to complete the kill Lilith quest.
Which one is the third?
I can remember the portal at F. Michael's basement and the Ossuary, but nothing else.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Randomizer »

Once you get into Crakamir you can use a goblin portal to go into the hills northeast of Blackwater and open the way.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Antigrav »

I accepted the shady man's quest to kill Lilith and visited her to inform her of the plot against her, perhaps gaining her confidence and maybe a visit to her vault as a reward. No such option, so I saved my game and fought her just to see how tough she really was. It was a close enough fight that, had I used Bless or Leatherskin, I might have lived to take an alternate path to see what other people put in their Repository spaces.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by sillek »

Antigrav wrote:I accepted the shady man's quest to kill Lilith and visited her to inform her of the plot against her

AH YES ! I had also headed back to Lilith, thinking there might be an option to warn her..but no such luck.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Arcanod »

I wanted to inform her too, but indeed we don't have that possibility. :(
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Evnissyen »

Well... thing is: even if we could tell Lilith, "Hey, somebody's after you," what's she going to say? Likely she already knows people are after her, which is why she lives in the middle of Tanglewood, tormented by enormous bees. And... what's she going to do for us, congratulate us for the news? Also... if she's smart, which the game seems to imply she is, she's going to wonder how we came about such information and why we're telling her... . She's not going to be interested in anything that sounds like, for example, what the NWN hero(ine) might call "protection insurance", I'd think she'd much, much sooner kill you, just to be safe.

...Well, I suppose telling her might prompt her to employ us to kill the people who're after her, but again... likely she already knows her foe . . . and a shadowy, difficult foe it is.

What I find curious is why these people are so hell-bent to get a hold of a simple sword, which is really only a little bit more powerful than the most powerful sword you can get from Blackwater ... assuming they know what she's holding in there . . . does the fact that it's the most powerful sword in Thaermore make it a collector's item? I don't know... . But I do like how the Shady Character reacts to you if you double cross him.

(By the way: since I haven't done so already, I'd like to commend Arcanod for putting up a bilingual post . . . I really don't see enough of them.)
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Arkos »

Never saw any reason to kill Lilith, myself. But then, I have a soft spot for pretty girls.

My first playthrough, I declined the assassination quest. The second one, I outright killed the guy who wanted her dead. Nobody around me seemed to mind too much. The innkeeper didn't even chastise me for spilling blood all over his floor.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by quasimodo »

I liked this design choice. A unique reward for an evil act. I decided I really didn't want the sword that much.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Arcanod »

Evnissyen wrote:does the fact that it's the most powerful sword in Thaermore make it a collector's item?
Without doubt, and any adept of characters optimization would fall in love before a such sword name !
But I agree with you. With only a difference of 1 damage point with the adamantine great sword (which is still more powerful than the unique weapons of the cleaving and bludgeoning categories), there is no need to rack its brains : I won't kill Lilith then, neither kill the guy who wants her amulet (that's her problem, after all, and we don't know all the details, altough that guy appears to be nasty).

And there's still that "divine ore" item found inside the mercenaries cave. Perhaps there's a blacksmith somewhere to forge another "divine ore great sword"... :D
quasimodo wrote:I liked this design choice. A unique reward for an evil act.
Yeah, it's probably that simple : players who have to face a moral choice.
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