My Opinion, Hey Basilisk guys where is the beginner mode???

[Punsh]

First!
I'm german and my english is bad : )


I very much like the retro style of Eschalon.
So, the feeling of the game is nice.
But, this much trail and error if you are new in the game...
this is a point that realy bores me.


I mean, its god for the community here in this forum in some ways, so you guys search and talk more about strategys and guides ; )


But to be serious,
i think it would be a very good idear to give the new players a few VERY helpfull advises. So if he starts a new game, the will be a "first game" button (or something like that). If a player push this button he will gets more advises during the charakter creation, like helpfull explantations about the skills.

One idea is that every skill explantation has a few words about his helpfullnes, so some one takes the sword skill an in the explantation stands something like: this skill is a good choice for a beginner.
and in the bow skill explantation stands a warning about the costs of arrows.
and in the no damage skills explantions are warnings like " this skill (cartography,alchemy....) is very helpfull later in the game / this skill is a no damage skill dont foget do take one fighting skill.


This much trail an arror in games is a real horror and it has nothing to do with "hardcore" oder skill... its only trail and error if you dont have the advises at the beginning....


So there should be a "beginner charakter creation" in the game.
Not every one has the time to study so much about games.


And the "hardcore game" can skip this option and play his trail and error game.



If you guyes from basilisk build such a extra into your games it would be a very helpfull extra, many more players would enjoy this beauty.

On you homepage at the game explantation could stand than: "with beginner mode" oder something like that.


So this are my toughts, my first toughts, lats talk about this problem, together.
lets find solutions

[xolotl]

i think it would be a very good idear to give the new players a few VERY helpfull advises. So if he starts a new game, the will be a "first game" button (or something like that). If a player push this button he will gets more advises during the charakter creation, like helpfull explantations about the skills.

Book II actually includes an option to start with one of five (?) premade characters which are considered "balanced" and would be a good start for a beginning player. Perhaps there could be a community effort to provide a similar set for Book I (if that isn't already available).

If you haven't read through the manual, that may help make decisions in the meantime. As a general bit of advice: just decide at the beginning which two or three skills to focus on, and keep pumping points into them. You'll have an easier time if you focus on a few, than spreading the points out.

[Randomizer]

There are pre-mades for Book 1, but what makes a balanced character is subjective.

Basilisk Wrangler didn't want to make a game that coddles beginners. He made a game that assumes a certain level of experience with these types of games. So you get dropped into a game without your memory and useful advice about what works.

The best thing you can do is use the links to topics that give advice for a specific type of character.

[Punsh]

Sounds good, sound good.

But, so the players gets something and dont realy know why this is balanced.
In my opinion this solution is to easy... a real no brainer


A "trail and error hater" likes the charakter creation too!! yes very much.
But he want absolutly know how his skills will work in the game.


this is a point were most rpgs lacking.


at the first time you realy dont know how well your chosen skills work.

but with more detailed skill explantations it will be easier to understand the
"rang/position" of the skills in the game.

the same goes for the attributes


My philosophy of skills is:

a few balanced skills where every skills has its place in the game.

I dont know if the skills and atributes in Eschalon are balanced or if there are
"useless skills"

but thats not the point.


My point is, the players should absolutly know what his skills will bring him.
So he could strategically chose them, and not this no brain trail and error.

If there isnt this information the player will search, so why dont give it from the beginning. and if he dont like is, he dont chose the "beginnger mode" (or how we will name it)



I can understand of someone says "this kills the feeling" but if you tink about it its wrong, in real life you know too how much your skills help you.

But in the game you dont know how much your skills will give you, so there only two possibilities, 1. play trail and error, hours abour hours or 2. search in the forum, but why dont give the player these information direktly in the game?

[Punsh]

So, i'm very interestet what the creators of the game saying to my idea?

what is your opinion about my thought?

[BasiliskWrangler]

We've tried to make a game that is "easy to get in to, but hard to master". The interface needed to be easy to understand, and the general play mechanics needed to be quick to pick-up...but the rest of the game needed to be challenging.

Understanding skills and attributes, and figuring out what makes a good character build, is where the real strategy is.

We really don't want to scare or frustrate new players. On the contrary, we hope new players who discover our games are happy that we don't just "give away the gameplay" with excessive tutorials and a simplified role-playing system.

The player's manual, and the in-game text during the character creation process, should give you all the information you need to make wise choices when building your character. Then there are these forums, filled with people who will share advice with new players. Yes, there may be some trial-and-error...I personally play every RPG by first making a "junk character" and putting 2-3 hours into it so I can learn all the stats and game mechanics, then I start over with a new character, pouring all my knowledge into it.

Eschalon does demand a certain level of dedication from the player. While I hope all players find enjoyment with our games, we can't make everyone happy. In the end, we must stay true to our "old-school RPG" philosophy, even if that means we may lose other customers who are looking for a lighter RPG.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

BW, I think you need to copy that and sticky it in the Announcements section of the board. It's a really good description of your philosophy.

[Punsh]

Okey, I understand that point.

So here is an other explantation of my philosophy.



Why not lift the mist?

You could show the players the multipliers, so that he knows for example:

"if i pick on point in intelligence i will geht that much petter" or if a chose one point in doge i will exactly get that much better"

you understand what i mean?


I mean in reallife its the same, in some way you know your skills and what you learn.


but in every rpg one point in for expample "doge" gives you other extras.
so in one game 2 points are nice but in an other game you need 15 points to make the skill "work".
but if you knows the multiplicators you understand the game mechanics much better but that did not mean its easyer to play, its just not so much trail and error.
the strategic factor on wich skills and attributes you chose is still there.


its a bit like diablo 2 where you get this information if you hould your mouse over the skill. or titan quest where you could direktly see the how well a skill or attribute at which level works, from the beginning of the game.


In my opition this mist about the skills and attributes has nothing to do with classic or hardcoregaming, so thats my opinion.


And I thing i wouldn't make the game easier
trail and error has not much to do with the "real" difficult of a game. it only gives you a loooonger lerning,trail and error,no brain : ( phase
(I hate these points in many rpgs)


you could build this quality into your games if you want it.

think about it

[SpottedShroom]

You could show the players the multipliers, so that he knows for example:

"if i pick on point in intelligence i will geht that much petter" or if a chose one point in doge i will exactly get that much better"

I agree this would be a nice feature. In the character creation/advancement screen, have a description of the effects your changes would make. I'm not sure how best to model this, but maybe a mouse-over for each attribute. When you're at Strength 19, say, you might get something like "Strength 20 - +1 damage for melee weapons, carrying capacity +5 lbs)".

I play a lot of pencil and paper RPGs, though, so I'm used to being able to look at the formulas to decide what to take for my character.