Why I haven't bought Eschalon

[ReligionIsDumb]

Hi,

Just a consumer posting my thoughts on the product in hopes that some of my ideas may stick and be incorporated in future games from the company.

First, let me say that I have demod both EB1 and EB2 and was generally happy with the overall style of the game. Focus on story and game mechanics and graphics are secondary. I like this and I think 90% of the cost of most games these days is due to eye candy which is NOT what makes a good game (dragon age 2 is a perfect example). That being said, the game has, from what I can tell, a few major failures in terms of game mechanics that are the reason I still have not purchased the game despite it only being about 4 dollars on steam.

The first is the skill system. I know others have pointed this out, but it encourages players to not spend their points until they find the trainer and suddenly become godlike in that area. This is kind of silly if you ask me. Others have gone into much more detail on why this is a bad mechanic and I just add my voice to the chorus. I would also like to point out that it is silly to have bludgeons and swords be completely different skills if those skills are the only ones that control melee combat. A swordsman does not forget everything he learned about melee combat just because he has a club in his hand instead of his trusty sword. In addition to "specializations" in certain weapon classes, there need to be broader skills that represent your character's general ability to fight regardless of the particular weapon in his hands.

The second is the lack of clarity regarding how various attributes and skills improve your character. The formulas for these things (which can be found in the forums if you hunt a little) should be IN the game. This is especially necessary since the system is unique. If the character building system was standard d20, one wouldn't need such tips necessarily, but the fact that perception, rather than intellect is the major attribute for your mana pool is not clear at all from the in game tooltips (just one example). Additionally, it seems that points in magic, elemental are useless after you have the level 5 version of all your spells available. This is fairly minor, but if a skill is useless after a certain point, the game needs to inform me of this in some way. Given the finality of skill selection, it seems that it would be prudent to give players as much information as possible before they make these decisions and also make some effort to ensure that all of the skills are somewhat useful. It does not seem that this has been done very well.

Additionally, there appears to be a bug in movement. If I move one square at a time, the lizard chasing me keeps up with me staying exactly the same distance away. However, if I make several moves in rapid succession, the lizard does not seem to keep up. I am totally ok with having mobs of different speeds. I would in fact love a mechanic where a "zerg" type creature might get 1.25 actions per action that I take (he has a 25% chance of getting two actions each time I take an action). However, this mechanic should be independent of how fast I elect to take my actions.

Finally, the AI is exceptionally weak even for such a low budget game. I have not seen any mob that does anything other than charge at me and attack. If you manage to ditch them using the movement bug above or leaving the area, they just wait for you exactly where they last were. They don't go back to their allies. They don't heal. They just sit there waiting for you to get around to killing them. I know *I* can write better AI than that given enough time, and I am sure you guys can too, but someone needs to put some time into it. Additionally, all enemies seem to hate me but don't mind each other very much. Lizards and goblins all want to kill me even though the goblin standing right next to the lizard seems a lot easier to catch. A mob does not alert other nearby mobs to your presence once he detects you. This makes it trivially easy to "pull" individual mobs from a group and whittle them down. It seems like only the most basic effort was put into the AI wheras a small time investment here could produce a functional AI that improves both the challenge of the game and immersion.

The above are kind of deal breakers for me...especially the silly skill system and the AI.

I would also just like to say that I think this game is an ideal playground for trying a "use to improve" skill system where skills are increased by doing the associated action. Hit monsters with a sword and your sword skill and melee combat skills go up. Get hit by monsters and your defensive skills go up. In this way players would inevitably build a character that suited their play style. But that is just a wish list.

Anyway, good luck with your games and I hope that you found some of my comments helpful. I really hope that I can bring myself to buy future products from you guys because I am a huge old-school rpg fan who cares not a wit about graphics, and I have a lot of trouble finding solid RPGs for mac....Two Worlds 2 was just sad...

[CrazyBernie]

Not buying the game when it's only $4 to show some support for an indie developer when you've already mentioned that you've at least somewhat enjoyed the game seems rather unencouraging. That said, I'm sure BW will take your criticisms into consideration as he toils away on Book III and other future games.

Keep in mind that the Eschalon style of gameplay isn't for everyone, nor is it meant to be. There's much less hand holding, and that is intentional. As you've mentioned in your lengthy post, there's lots of areas that could possibly be improved upon, but it's tough for a one man army. All of your points have been brought up previously if you happen to poke around the forums here.

[Vroqren]

[offtopic]Wait... BW is the only maker of Eschalon? I know he uses our ideas sometimes, but... Still, he's the only one working on it?

Respect Bar:
Was: ----X-----
Now: --------X-

We owe you BW, ty for making such great games![/offtopic]

[ontopic]I agree with what Bernie said[/ontopic]

[CrazyBernie]

He's not the *only* one, per se. He does contract out services, but without BW, there wouldn't really be a BG.

[ReligionIsDumb]

Not buying the game when it's only $4 to show some support for an indie developer when you've already mentioned that you've at least somewhat enjoyed the game seems rather unencouraging.

Well, I am poor, and I am very picky about my games. I waited until torchlight went down to $3 on steam before i bought it. I waited for team fortress 2 to be free. The only game I bought that was more than $3 in the past two years was Civ IV. So, while I am a cheapskate, I am consistently cheap and I don't feel I am being unfair to EB in my purchasing choices. If I can catch it for <$3 with steamplay, I'll get it.

Keep in mind that the Eschalon style of gameplay isn't for everyone, nor is it meant to be. There's much less hand holding, and that is intentional.

I would NEVER complain about the difficulty. I am as frustrated as those on this forum about the lack of challenge in games these days. I found myself struggling through the demo at times, but I later found out this was because I was pumping int for mana points instead of perception, so I didn't have enough mana to kill more than one mob before I had to camp, where I usually ran into 2 mobs and had to run. I also find out later that I gimped my swordsman because I took sword skill ranks in the early game. The game should not be challenging because of poor informatics and skill system design. That just frustrates people. It should be challenging because it is a challenging game.

[CrazyBernie]

Well, I am poor, and I am very picky about my games. I waited until torchlight went down to $3 on steam before i bought it. I waited for team fortress 2 to be free. The only game I bought that was more than $3 in the past two years was Civ IV. So, while I am a cheapskate, I am consistently cheap and I don't feel I am being unfair to EB in my purchasing choices. If I can catch it for <$3 with steamplay, I'll get it.

Keep an eye on the Humble Bundle site... BW is attempting to get a Humble RPG Bundle going that would include Book I

[BasiliskWrangler]

Keep an eye on the Humble Bundle site... BW is attempting to get a Humble RPG Bundle going that would include Book I

This is looking less and less likely. The Humble Bundle guys just don't think Book 1 would be a good addition. Convince them, if you think otherwise.

[CrazyBernie]

Really? Have they actually told you as much and given a reason? I can't say why any sort of indie bundle with any willing-to-participate developer would be a bad thing... unless they're targeting a specific type of gaming audience/game type/developers. Otherwise, it sounds like there's some sort of business going on in the background....

[ManusDei]

I also find out later that I gimped my swordsman because I took sword skill ranks in the early game. The game should not be challenging because of poor informatics and skill system design.

Well, trying to reach the trainer without any points in sword would be a huge pain. And don't worry, even if points are scarce, you don't need those few points to beat the game.

[CrazyBernie]

Well, trying to reach the trainer without any points in sword would be a huge pain. And don't worry, even if points are scarce, you don't need those few points to beat the game.

I'm inclined to agree with this assessment... it seems like a lot of people think that by not having prior knowledge of the trainers that they have been robbed of precious skill points. I tend to look at the trainers as offering supplemental training for skills that I haven't necessarily developed.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Really? Have they actually told you as much and given a reason? I can't say why any sort of indie bundle with any willing-to-participate developer would be a bad thing... unless they're targeting a specific type of gaming audience/game type/developers. Otherwise, it sounds like there's some sort of business going on in the background....

They do seem to have a strategy for "inviting" developers to be part of a bundle. I don't know what that strategy is, but in the past 2 months of exchanging emails with them, they have never offered us a spot on a future bundle, nor put any real thought into an RPG specific bundle.

That shouldn't stop folks from pestering them. They probably just don't think a scrappy old-school RPG appeals to many gamers.

[xolotl]

The first is the skill system. I know others have pointed this out, but it encourages players to not spend their points until they find the trainer and suddenly become godlike in that area.

Ah, this again. If you'd ever set out to purposefully exploit the skill system, with respect to trainers, I think you'd find it to be far more hassle than it's worth. I've played through the game numerous times since realizing the potential, and I've only bothered to do so once. Just because you can exploit a system doesn't mean that you'll necessarily even want to, and even if you do, it's only your own singleplayer game experience that you're affecting.

If this were a multiplayer game where you're in direct competition with other players, I could see this kind of thing being problematic, but it seems ridiculous to complain about it as it stands. Should I be upset that people like me write character editors which let you create godlike characters right from the very start of the game?

[SpottedShroom]

Should I be upset that people like me write character editors which let you create godlike characters right from the very start of the game?

You should be ashamed of yourself! :)