All roads lead to Rome / Limitations of character mechanics

Slarty · Post by **Slarty** » December 18th, 2007, 1:13 pm

Although I like the character engine in Eschalon, I'm starting to realize that simple efficiency pushes all builds in the same direction. Although it's certainly possible to play other types of characters than the one described here, the only incentive to do so is role-playing in your head; the game rewards one path above others, implicitly, due to the mechanics of the engine.

Note that I am not saying any of these limitations are necessarily bad in and of themselves, it's just that the combination pretty much forces one type of character.

1) Relative strength of buffs & spells compared to weapon & rogue skill investment

For an investment of 11 points into Divination (5 of which can be bought anyway), Bless provides +6 to-hit and +6 damage for only 12 MP. It costs 12 points of weapon skill to achieve the same effect, so there's pretty much *no* build that wouldn't want to invest in Divination. A further investment of 9 points allows you to buff strength and dex with the same end result of +6 to-hit and +6 damage. It also allows you to cast Haste, which *doubles* your damage output. So high Divination is a no-brainer even ignoring its other benefits: healing, armor spells, and the like.

If your to-hit score is adequate, Elemental magic also has buffing ability equal to points put into weapon skill. For an investment of 20 points (5 of which can be bought) Enkindled Weapon provides +12 damage; compare to +10 damage and +10 to-hit from 20 points in a weapon skill. (Assuming I'm interpreting the description correctly.) But your elemental points also net you offensive and defensive spells, utility spells like Invisibility, and perhaps most importantly -- Lock Melt and Trapkill, which render the corresponding rogue skills completely unnecessary. It's a bargain no matter how you look at it.

2) Inefficiency of damage spells

It's not that direct damage is too weak, it's just too expensive for what it does. Although I'm sure it's possible to play a mage who only attacks with magic, it sounds like it becomes an exercise in constant sleeping and potion hoarding with a painfully fragile character.

3) Cap on non-weapon skill investment

Despite the power of the buffs, there is little reason to invest further in magic. You can put more points in to have multiple portals or a stronger (but prohibitively expensive) hit all spell. And beyond 31 there's no point whatsoever to investing in magic. Combined with (2) above, and the uselessness of most of the auxiliary skills (i.e., Survival), this means potential for character differentiation lies mainly in the distribution of skill points among a melee skill, bows, hide in shadows, and armor skills... very little variety! Investment in alchemy seems fairly obvious as well, I think.

4) Meaninglessness of most base stats

Base stats could inject some variety into this formula, but they don't. The combat-relevant stats have such a tiny impact on damage and to-hit scores compared to weapon skill and buffs. (+1 damage OR to-hit per 5 points, compared to +1 damage AND to-hit per 2 points.)

The defense-relevant stats also have a small impact on armor scores compared to armor itself and buffs, though I haven't looked at them as closely. Tiny increases in resistances seem, again, irrelevant.

Weight allowance is not particularly relevant given the ability to change equipment without using your turn in battle -- though I think I smell a change to this in a future version of the game.

Int and Wis are meaningless except for the spell learning requirements: fairly cheap at 10, 15, and 20 respectively.

As many others have posted here, this leaves the most significant stats by far as Endurance and Perception, which influence HP and MP the most. And that's fine. But they don't provide a different way to build a character either.

I can see some of the responses already: you're thinking too much, you min-maxing munchkin! Quit whining and have fun! You don't have to be all-powerful. So let me say: I'm not trying to whine or complain and I certainly am having fun. These are just some observations and commentary on the character system used in the game.

adamantyr · Post by **adamantyr** » December 18th, 2007, 1:47 pm

Some very good research there.

I agree that the character system definitely needs some rethinking for Book II and beyond. I think it's elemental-focused magic that gets the worst of it. Divination magic offers so many other useful utilities and buffs in comparison. And elemental magic doesn't even do the massive damage we would expect to compensate for its lacking in other areas.

I eventually broke down and hex-edited my character file to boost my statistics up once it became clear that I'd gone down the "wrong" path and at level 10 my character was far too weak in critical areas. Still, it's better than having to run and sleep all the time.

The degree of individualism isn't much there either. I don't see why we couldn't have had a female character option. Some minor dialogue changes, extra portraits and a different model base for the character graphic and it's done. The amnesia plot also removes any importance to having a name... after all, you really don't know WHO you are, so any names you take aren't real.

Adam

Necromis · Post by **Necromis** » December 18th, 2007, 1:59 pm

Slarty, the essence of the game from the old school era is the min-max build, as Tom/BW has pointed out. So anyone who complains to you about that aspect would be a twit. I agree the game is leading towards the end you mention. Warrior/mage. But not spellcaster. I say it this way because as you pointed out you really cannot acomplish alot with the damage spells after long and not have to sleep constantly. So you build a warrior who can heal/hast/Buff/bless. You eithe plink w/bow, or plink w/fire dart, then slaughter them in melee. I was actually coming to some ideas that might be able to fix this and give classes their uniqueness but still allowing cross class ability so you are not fully limited. I think some skill spliting and slight amount of skill restrictions would help, along with some change to the damage spells. I will post more on a different thread later

Rune_74 · Post by **Rune_74** » December 18th, 2007, 2:12 pm

Trust me these things have been noted and Thom is working on some fixes and some major tweaking in areas. I think some of the ideas are excellent and many of you will like Book 2. This said, everything is in the basics stage right now as far as I know.

Randomizer · Post by **Randomizer** » December 18th, 2007, 4:03 pm

Pick locks and skullduggery are another case of no point in getting more than one level. Since experience is based on your ease of opening, the higher the levels you have, the less experience you get for your effort (10 XP less per level versus 5% easier chance of doing it). Sure you save time in not having to constantly reload for every failure or broken lockpick, but this game encourages constant reloads to maximize return.

realmzmaster · Post by **realmzmaster** » December 18th, 2007, 4:54 pm

Almost every old school CRPG encouraged constant reloads to maximize return. The only way to avoid constant reload is the every chest, barrel, hidden wall, or sack would have set items in them. No matter how many times you reload you would get the same item. That's boring and leads to a lot of development work or the designer cuts down on the number of chests and barrels in the game. Any random encounter of the same type (say bandits) will give you the exact same reward.

Or you could allow for more skills as some CRPGs do. Instead of just swords have a skill for each type of sword ( daggers, short swords, long swords, claymores, etc). The wizard (spellcaster) would be limited to dagger skill. Instead of just a thrown weapon skill have skills for darts, throwing daggers, axes etc. The point is that the entire system of skills can become unwieldly very quickly.

If you play the spellcaster in Eschalon, you start with the Elemental skill. Now you need to include swords to wield a dagger, and bludgeoning to wield a quarterstaff without penalty. Even to wear robes you need light armor. The system as it stands will not stop you from using a bigger sword, or bludgeoning weapon or armor other than robes.

The system is simple and flexibility. It will allow you to create whatever character you want. The flexibility allows you to have a spellcaster who uses a quarterstaff with the strength of 22 or more.

Yes, I know other CRPGs follow the D & D rules and enforce those rules on your character. What you are asking is for the game to enforce certain rules on your character. All rpgs do not have the same rules. RuneQuest, Tunnels & Trolls, Middle Earth and other RPGs do not have the same limitations. Many of use grew up with D & D and expect that the crpg will follow those rules. The designer does not have to strictly follow the rules. What works in pen and paper does not always carry over to crpg. Heck, most of use had house rules for D & D!!

I am now playing a spellcaster. I rolled a mage character that started with intelligence 18 and strength 18, endurance 14, perception 16 concentration 14 speed 14 and dexterity 14. I limited myself to only one roll. I got lucky. I limited myself to one roll, because in life you have the attributes you are born with you do not get to reroll. I could have rolled until I got all 18's. (no fun). I put a point in swords so I can carry a dagger and a point in bludgeoning so I can carry the quarterstaff. The other point in Elemental. I used the money I left for myself in Aridell to buy fire dart.

I use fire dart and lots of mana potions to wreck havoc. I can kill my opponent at long range, rarely do I get hit or lose concentration if I do. I lure one or two characters at a time. You can also imbue your quarterstaff and dagger. You have spells to enhance your weapon. You have defensive spells to protect yourself. Yes playing a spellcaster is tough, but that is in any crpg.

Rune_74 · Post by **Rune_74** » December 18th, 2007, 5:08 pm

Woah, paragraphs please:P

realmzmaster · Post by **realmzmaster** » December 18th, 2007, 5:11 pm

Sorry! My stream of conciousness. I will edit.

Rune_74 · Post by **Rune_74** » December 18th, 2007, 5:17 pm

As far as I know, the skill system may be a bit different in book 2...how different its too early to say, but I don't see individual skills for each weapon type...maybe specialization type skills who knows at this point. Trust me Thomas has an idea of what to do.

Slarty · Post by **Slarty** » December 18th, 2007, 11:44 pm

Necromis wrote:Slarty, the essence of the game from the old school era is the min-max build, as Tom/BW has pointed out.

I actually disagree with this. This is true in the sense that min-maxing stats was always important. However, most old school era games had a tiny number of stats you could customize, instead giving players very different choices in the form of class and sometimes race. Sure, Paladins have usually been preferable to straight Fighters. But in Ultima and Wizardry a pure spellcaster always had more options than a hybrid class, and a pure fighter was always a better fighter. Final Fantasy, Realmz, lots of other games... ditto. There was always incentive to diversify parties and specialize individuals. You could min-max, but you had to min-max within a given template, and each template was of a very different colour.

If Book II involves parties as hinted at in another thread, that alone might alleviate some of the magnetic pull to a single build.

Rune_74 · Post by **Rune_74** » December 18th, 2007, 11:53 pm

Book 2 will not have a party...it will be single character. I think the plan is to diversify the skills a bit to make certain buillds more diverse. At the moment I understand he is only at the planning stage so to say how much or what exactly is too hard.

Randomizer · Post by **Randomizer** » December 19th, 2007, 1:01 am

The point that Slarty is making is that in terms of efficiency in dealing damage, all characters tend towards the same skill set. Running a pure mage requires extensive use of mana potions or retreating to regain mana because of the spell damage cap. So at some point it becomes better to go to weapon damage and use spells to buff and increase weapon damage.

This compares to other CRPGs where there is no one way to build a character. Just go to Spiderweb Games and there are long debates on what is the best way to make a character because there are several different successful ways. Here there is a pure fighter and a mage/fighter. A rogue and ranger are just slight variations on the fighter class with the initial skill. Healer just emphasizes divination spells over elemental and can just as easily obtain them. Both spell casters eventual gain fighting skills.

Book II needs to have more class only dependent skills so there is a true differentiation between the characters. Just as D&D had rogues with thieving skills and backstabbing to make up for their weaker weapon and armor selection. In Book I the only difference is in how a player wants to stay in character.

realmzmaster · Post by **realmzmaster** » December 19th, 2007, 2:21 am

Therefore what you are saying is you want the system to enforce character delination. Which brings us back to the point which rule set does the designer use? Does the designer define the different character classes by D & D rules or do you use GURPS, Tunnels & Trolls, RuneQuest, Middle Earth, Fantasy Trip or Swords & Sorcery. Each one defines the classes differently.

In D & D your charcter can dual or multi class depending on their race. Therefore (as an example) I can be a spellcaster get to eight level and then switch to fighter class. Now I am unable to cast spells until my fighter reaches eight level or beyond. Assuming I survive. I will then be a very efficient battlemage. The Eschalon system is flexible enough to allow me to create a battlemage from the start or play as a pure mage or any other class.

What people basically want is a system that keeps them from cheating when the going gets tough. By cheating I mean giving your charcter skills or equipment they normally would not have for that class. You want the Eschalon system to provide that check and balance. Thereby making sure you cannot cheat. You have to start a whole new character.

For example, It would have been nice to see wands in the game which could augment the spellcasters power. And only the spellcaster could use wands. And only spell casters could memorize spells. Fighters could only use scrolls if they have the appropriate language skills.

Like I said most of us were raised on D & D rules. Most CRPGs in the beginning followed D & D rules. D & D defined early CRPGs. Eschalon uses a simple, but elegant system. What you are asking for is a system that does not allow you to step out of character.

Randomizer · Post by **Randomizer** » December 19th, 2007, 3:02 am

I am asking for a system that has more differentiation as a result of choosing the starting class. Right now the only real difference is whether you get more hit points or mana. The one extra skill level at the start isn't significant.

Most of the older games like Might and Magic (the original first few from the 1980's) had weapons that were only useable by a certain class. Sure you might have to start over if you build your character wrong, but playing the game with a different class should have more of a difference in how you play. So a mage can blast away with spells from the start and a rogue waits for dark to hide in shadows to attack. The Eschalon system means that no matter what you start with, you can play the game the same way. Just pick the same skills and add to stats the same way to have a the same experience.

leonhartt · Post by **leonhartt** » December 19th, 2007, 3:51 am

Yes, without class specific restrictions on the types and number of skills that your character can learn, Eschalon is basically a rpg game whereby you can choose to multi-class in all kind of ways that you like.

That's the whole point of the character system in Eschalon. I think i read one of the interviews with the developer before, it's said that Eschalon is a skill-based game, not a class-based game.