OFFICIAL Map Editor (question)

[BasiliskWrangler]

Everyone-

I've been loosely following your modding discussions and wanted to ask your opinions about modding for Book 3. It seems everyone is doing a pretty good job with xolotl's editor, which appears to be on-par with our own map editor (perhaps even a bit more user friendly).

If xolotl is okay with this suggestion, and everyone is too, what about designating his editor as the "officially endorsed" map editor? What this would mean is I would officially approve of his editor and offer to him any information he would need to improve it, such as data file structure, map/character variable information, zip passwords, scripting keywords, etc.

Of course, this all depends on if xolotl wants to continue to support his editor. If not, I'll still plan on releasing our editor in the next couple weeks.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Assuming that xolotl accepts, will step #5 still apply?

Nope. As long as someone else is supporting the tools, you people can keep modding forever.

[raverdave2k]

I certainly am quite happy with the current editor and have used it with great success to make several mods, the things missing from current editor that I was under the impression we would be able to do in yours (though I could be wrong)

1) Create your own NPC's with new dialogue etc.
2) Create proper quests that can appear in your journal.
3) Import new / or edit existing tiles / sprites.
4) Err ... I'm sure there were probably more but I'm in work so I can't sit here to long thinking

*Edit
5) Custom books / letters etc

[SharpXe]

Sorry but time of pregenerated handmade maps are gone.

Post format specs, API or something, and add ability to load maps from memory image or arbitrary filedescriptor, this will allow to write simple map generator and generate maps at runtime.

I already see eschalon turned into something like torchlight or fate

[BasiliskWrangler]

Sorry but time of pregenerated handmade maps are gone.

I'm sure many people here would disagree with you.

[Ssschah]

I'm curious as to what your editor is like, BW. Specifically, what's different than in xolotl's? If it's significantly different you could release yours then see what people think of the two editors compared to eachother...

[SpottedShroom]

offer to him any information he would need to improve it, such as data file structure, map/character variable information, zip passwords, scripting keywords, etc.

You're just doing this because I spent the last two nights reverse-engineering scripting stuff, aren't you?

[IJBall]

I certainly am quite happy with the current editor and have used it with great success to make several mods, the things missing from current editor that I was under the impression we would be able to do in yours (though I could be wrong)

1) Create your own NPC's with new dialogue etc.
2) Create proper quests that can appear in your journal.
3) Import new / or edit existing tiles / sprites.
4) Err ... I'm sure there were probably more but I'm in work so I can't sit here to long thinking

*Edit
5) Custom books / letters etc

Yeah, to me, all of this is key. And, right now, xolotl's/Spotted Shroom's editor apparently can't do any of that.

If BW can work with them to make all that happen, then I'm fully on board with BW doing this. But, otherwise...

I'd also like to put in a "shout out", right now, for working with xolotl & Spotted Shroom so that all of the Book II mobs and NPCs (including their portrait images) (and also the Book II grid sprites?!...) are included in the Editor along with the Book III ones. If we can get access to the combined Book II & Book III "library", I think we would have nearly everything we could ever possibly want for Modding... (I think the only thing missing from that is, like, the "Bat" sprite from Book I...).

I'd also love it if we could get access to the (mostly) complete music library for all three Books (I'd really love it if we could get access to, say, the Overland themes from Book I...), though I realize there are likely contractual issues to deal with there...

P.S. Will xolotl & Spotted Shroom somehow get, you know, compensated for their efforts here?!...

[severian]

Any way of making a decent, user friendly and flexible editor will make me happy.

General lore is, that any dedicated third party - like a passionate fan or group of fans - with enough good support from gamedevs, will usually do a great job.

It`s obvious, that main flaws of the old editor come from lack of access to the source code and assets.

As for me, a way of importing own assets and editing some of its "spacial" parameters, would be a great help.
I especially mean adding some ways of importing new 3d models, sprites, 2d graphics for equipment, or even sounds.

As for parametric map generation - flexible interface may allow both. First generating something from parameters, then - adding details.

If not this - scalable terrain brushes would be great. First I could paint general terrain in large scale map viewport, then I could go down in scale and add details with smaller terrain brushes.

"Will xolotl & Spotted Shroom somehow get, you know, compensated for their efforts here?!"

Some modders are usually given positions or some contracts on following projects - since some prove to be that good, that it would be stupid for companies not to hire them.
However, I think it`s not our business

[SpottedShroom]

I certainly am quite happy with the current editor and have used it with great success to make several mods, the things missing from current editor that I was under the impression we would be able to do in yours (though I could be wrong)

1) Create your own NPC's with new dialogue etc.
2) Create proper quests that can appear in your journal.
3) Import new / or edit existing tiles / sprites.
4) Err ... I'm sure there were probably more but I'm in work so I can't sit here to long thinking :)

*Edit
5) Custom books / letters etc

These are all things that depend not on the editor but on mod support in the engine - the ability to load resources from outside the datapak zip file. That's likely to be forthcoming regardless.

[IJBall]

I certainly am quite happy with the current editor and have used it with great success to make several mods, the things missing from current editor that I was under the impression we would be able to do in yours (though I could be wrong)

1) Create your own NPC's with new dialogue etc.
2) Create proper quests that can appear in your journal.
3) Import new / or edit existing tiles / sprites.
4) Err ... I'm sure there were probably more but I'm in work so I can't sit here to long thinking

*Edit
5) Custom books / letters etc

These are all things that depend not on the editor but on mod support in the engine - the ability to load resources from outside the datapak zip file. That's likely to be forthcoming regardless.

OK, but won't we need to use the Editor to do all that?

I mean, I guess it's possible that we could just write up dialogue trees (and possibly book text) as text files on our own. But I'd have no idea how to do any of the rest of that, unless the Editor has "modules" or something to help us with all that...

[SpottedShroom]

OK, but won't we need to use the Editor to do all that?

I mean, I guess it's possible that we could just write up dialogue trees (and possibly book text) as text files on our own. But I'd have no idea how to do any of the rest of that, unless the Editor has "modules" or something to help us with all that...

Not necessarily, although some of that could certainly be implemented in the editor to make things easier. Dialog, quests, and books are just (specially formatted) text files. Merchants and NPCs/enemies are spreadsheets. Graphics and sounds are standard formats (png and ogg/wav), though some of the files are in "sheets" of multiple graphics separated by blank space.

Once there's proper mod support, at the very least someone (BW? me?) will document the formats.

[xolotl]

I've been loosely following your modding discussions and wanted to ask your opinions about modding for Book 3. It seems everyone is doing a pretty good job with xolotl's editor, which appears to be on-par with our own map editor (perhaps even a bit more user friendly).

If xolotl is okay with this suggestion, and everyone is too, what about designating his editor as the "officially endorsed" map editor? What this would mean is I would officially approve of his editor and offer to him any information he would need to improve it, such as data file structure, map/character variable information, zip passwords, scripting keywords, etc.

Gosh! Thanks for your kind words. I personally haven't done too much with the editor over the past year, but SpottedShroom has really stepped up to the plate to get Book III support in there - between the two of us, I'd think that we'd be able to keep it reasonably well supported over the coming years. Having access to "official" data structure documentation would make it even easier, though I do personally enjoy reverse-engineering things regardless. :)

A few folks on here have already brought up some fairly gaping holes in what I have right now. Many of those don't look like they would be terribly difficult to add in, though the main stumbling block there could possibly just be making sure that there's time to actually add them in. From what I'd looked at, an awful lot of the "missing features," so to speak, look like they're controlled either through text files or by some binary files with reasonably simple structures.

I haven't actually been involved in SpottedShroom's efforts to add in Book 3 support, but I'm guessing that adding in totally-new features like mob editing, dialogue editing, etc, will probably involve more work than what was needed to add in Book 3. For those kinds of things, having access to the "official" editor as well would be very useful to people making mods, at the very least until "my" stuff manages to catch up with the functionality that it doesn't currently support.

Regardless, certainly food for thought! If designating the current unofficial editor as semi-official, and getting the information necessary for us to expand it into other roles frees you up to do things like give us more expansions, rather than having to spend time polishing up your editor for official release, then that might be a more attractive option for everyone. :)

[Vroqren]

Awesome - I'm looking forward to the officially endorsed editor either way. Just wondering:
Was the plan that community, or BW would remake Book I with Book III's engine? I'd be willing to do it, but I know that I wouldn't do it justice, and also that I don't have the time for it.
I've been waiting for that to happen before I do a couple of builds through all three games in a row, and revise my Book I walkthrough.

[IJBall]

Awesome - I'm looking forward to the officially endorsed editor either way. Just wondering:
Was the plan that community, or BW would remake Book I with Book III's engine? I'd be willing to do it, but I know that I wouldn't do it justice, and also that I don't have the time for it.
I've been waiting for that to happen before I do a couple of builds through all three games in a row, and revise my Book I walkthrough.

I always assumed that we, the community, would have to redo the Book I maps (as well as design new maps for any areas not visited in Books I-III...).

I'm still hoping for some kind of "shortcut" on "converting" the Book II maps to Book III format, as I really don't want us to get stuck having to remake the Book II maps "from scratch" too...