Temple of Elemental Evil - the best RPG I almost didn't play

[ThwockSplort]

Temple of Elemental Evil - A Classic Greyhawk Adventure



If were going to talk about great cRPGs, we must include Temple of Elemental Evil. This game is definitely a diamond in the rough. But with a bit of polish, very worth it. I was one of the best RPG experiences I've had. Though I've never been to the pen and paper type game, I would say this is the closest thing to the tabletop you can get.

I bought this game for $10 in the back corner of a game store. I had just come off my Neverwinter Nights run through and I was jones-ing for some more D&D. When I popped it into my computer I was hit with a show stopping bug right away. I could not loot the bodies of my fallen enemies. Crap. I couldn't get a patch for it right away (long story) so I shelved it for months and months. Played Morrowind and other games and just forgot about it. One day I had a long stretch of time on my hands so I popped it back in. Best choice I could've made.





Just reading the manual is intimidating. They had to cram a lot of the 3.5 ruleset into a small booklet. Definitely not for the casual gamer, but I enjoyed the complexity. It definitely adds to the replay value with the many combinations of characters you can develop with the use of Feats. Take Joe Generic Fighter. Okay, you could do a sword and board, or follow some feat trees with Spring, Whirlwind Attack and Trip and make him a Spiked Chain fighter. Or go Dual Wield with a few levels in Ranger, or go Two Handed, or so on and so on.




There are nine, count ‘em, nine different story starts depending on your parties alignment. And you will meet and affect the story differently depending on your alignment. There are plenty of dialog choices to make that have far reaching affects to the game (think Fallout). At the very end you are treated to a nice epilogue of what happens to you and characters you have encountered along the way. It varies according to the choices you have made during the story. You can have everything from a goody-two shoes attitude to vile scumbag. The game doesn't railroad you into one way of play. The beginning story can be a bit bland. Simple, in-town fetch quest abound to those with patience who want a beginning XP boost. But if you want to jump right into the action, be warned - this game will gladly slap you to the ground if you are too naive and gung-ho. There are a wide variety of monsters from the typical ghouls, goblins and bugbears to the weird elemental plane creatures like Deep Eyes, Effreeti and Gorgons. Even some gods and demi gods thrown in for good measure.





The combat system is a fun, tactical simulation that was meant to be in D&D. It's not just a "boxing smoker" stand and bash fest like a lot of RPGs. You have to think. But it is turn based so there is time to plan. Power Attacks, Feints, Flanking, Attacks of Opportunity, Ready stances, 5-foot Steps, Charge Attacks are just some of the choices to consider when engaged in battle. And somehow it all done without a grid map. It can get intense. And that is nothing compared to the level of magic use. The Magic Users have a hole arsenal of spells straight from the core rulebooks. There are all kinds of buffs, blasts and battlefield control spells. The magic spell effects are some of the most beautiful I've seen in an RPG.

This game flopped when it came out due to the bugfest that seemed to plague every Trokia game ever made. But, it has a dedicated cult following.

The vanguard of that cult is the Circle of Eight:

Cirlcle of Eight Forum

If you plan on playing this game, SEE THEM FIRST.

You will need their patches. Not only have they fixed the laundry list of bugs that Trokia missed with the official patches, but they have lovingly modded the game to add new twists. They've added new weapons, armor, areas and quests. Would you like to use the character portraits and voices from Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale? They have them. They also have great advice and strategies.

I hope you will seek it out and give it a try. They just don't make them like this any more.

[GSV3MiaC]

There were two big problems with the game - the first was the buglist (which was unbelievably long, some of which were real show stoppers) and the second was that this is just a direct implementation of a P&P AD&D module of the same name (Author Gary Gygax, iirc), which wasn't actually a great module in the first place .. more like a showcase and sampler for (nearly) every monster in the AD&D manuals.

Not very realistic when behind every door there was 1-n (see AD&D Monster manual for exact number) of a completely different monster from the last door.

The engine, with the bugs fixed, would have been excellent (but, as you say a bit complex, even for hardened D&D fans) applied to a better storyline ..

[Toxic]

This game breaks my heart. Because it's the penultimate in turn-based combat engines. It's like the spiritual sequel of the Gold Box games ... but without all the annoying random combat.

But, ugh the storyline. I realize they were confined to what the module gave them .. but there was SO MUCH more that could have been done storywise using this engine.

What a shame we will never see a sequel .. or another game using this combat engine.

If you could merge NWN2's storyline with TOEE's combat .. you would have a game that could rival BG2.

[PaSquall]

I began this game months ago, but never finished it. The minute implementation of 3E rules produces too tactical combats for me... too many options. Not a big problem though.
The fact that the NPCs choose their loot and can leave you taking it with them is a far bigger problem IMO. I like to be in control of the party and choose what I give to who... Some might say this is more realistic, but I don't like it.
But yes it's a cool game, and the CO8 mods and patches make it far better. I'll definitely replay it.
The CO8 guys are making a new game based on this engine, and on the B1 TSR module IIRC. When it's done, it should be great.

[ThwockSplort]

If you could merge NWN2's storyline with TOEE's combat .. you would have a game that could rival BG2.

That would be awesome. Think of an Underdark adventure with this engine. I agree, the story is pretty meh. It does seem like a showcase for monsters and the voice acting is quite subpar. They are doing a remake of Keep on the Borderlands said to release the 28th of this Month (Jan 2008).

The fact that the NPCs choose their loot and can leave you taking it with them is a far bigger problem IMO.

That was annoying. I didn't mind them taking their cut, you just wanted control of who got what weapons/potions/item. It really sucked when the fighter NPC took a powerful scroll. Thankfully, CO8 implemented the Humble NPC fix to allow you control NPC inventory.

[getter77]

MANY thanks for making this informative topic/links to that forum laden with goodies. I see that Amazon has this game for insanely cheap NEW and have added it to my "need to get around to" listings along with the BGII and IWD Ultimate Set dealies.

It really does seem that this game will continue to evolve in a very encouraging way with these updated mods and whatnot the community there are pouring many a hour into. Fantastic thing to see.

Stuff like this almost brings a tear to my eye as far as what could've been if a game like Aidyn Chronicles: The First Mage for N64 had been a PC game...or if N64 emulation/hacking were many, many steps further than it currently is.

[Ihsan]

I really really enjoy temple of elemental evil, i just wish it was so very much longer. There are some great fan made mods that fix bugs and also add new content, such as some higher level dungeons.

http://www.co8.org/forum/

Takes some navigating but the goodies are there if you want them.

edit: woops maybe i should have read you original post more closely, you allready mentioned co8

[ThwockSplort]

I really really enjoy temple of elemental evil, i just wish it was so very much longer. There are some great fan made mods that fix bugs and also add new content, such as some higher level dungeons.

http://www.co8.org/forum/

Takes some navigating but the goodies are there if you want them.

edit: woops maybe i should have read you original post more closely, you allready mentioned co8

No, that's cool. My forum link is kind of buried in there. It bares repeating anyway.

[Horace2]

The fact that virtually all "rpg fans" I heard from disliked this game made me realize that appreciation for tactical turn based combat and character development was pretty much dead even within the self-proclaimed target audience for RPGs.

I'm just glad companies like Basilisk still cater to those of us who actually like RPGs (like ToEE) rather than mis-labeled adventure games (like anything made with the Infinity Engine).

[GSV3MiaC]

Just because 'RPG fans' dislike TOEE does not mean they dislike that type of game. As I said upthread someplace, it had two problems .. too many bugs and a lousy story line. With the bugs fixed many of those fans (me included) would like the format/engine etc just fine.

I vaguely recall it had some unnecessary nods to 3D gaming though (cut scenes or 1st person view bewteen fights or something?)

[Horace2]

It's not that they pointed out flaws in the game, it's that they found virtually nothing good to say about it.

At worst, true fans of RPGs should have said "this is a great RPG engine, but..."

But that's almost never how the complaints were phrased. I've heard very very few "cRPG" fans praise the engine of ToEE compared to, say, the Infinity engine.

There are still those who appreciate turn based tactical combat and char development, but unfortunately most people who think they're fans of RPGs are apparently burned out on the genre entirely and just want to play adventure games these days.

Games like Wiz 8 and ToEE being roundly panned by "cRPG fans" says much more about the fans than it does about the games, to those of us who understand how brilliant the combat/development engines were in those games (Wiz8 moreso than ToEE). Especially as compared to blockbuster widely praised "cRPGs" like the infinity engine games, which were good only due to their adventure game aspects rather than for their cRPG aspects.

[Rune_74]

NOt sure I agree with you....where does an adventure game not become a rpg and where does a rpg become an rpg? I think its silly to even label games that way, I liked the infinity engine games and to call them adventure games is just plain wrong...just like I liked Temple of elemental evil...also an rpg....I think in reality putting a game into one slot/type of game is wrong and doesn't actually make much sense.

[Ihsan]

I love turn based combat, with heaps of character options and that is why i love TOEE. But i see were people are coming from when they talk about the story, it really isnt there, which makes the game somewhat hard to recommend to just anyone.

Seems to me that TOEE is somewhat of a niche game.

[Horace2]

NOt sure I agree with you....where does an adventure game not become a rpg and where does a rpg become an rpg? I think its silly to even label games that way, I liked the infinity engine games and to call them adventure games is just plain wrong...just like I liked Temple of elemental evil...also an rpg....I think in reality putting a game into one slot/type of game is wrong and doesn't actually make much sense.

Well it's like any other word, a shorthand to express an idea.

In this case it's a pretty simple idea as far as I'm concerned.

cRPGs are Adventure games with an added layer of (and emphasis on) tactical combat and quantitative character development.

There's nothing in Adventure games that isn't also commonly in cRPGs.

But there's plenty in cRPGs that isn't usually found in Adventure games.

And everything about cRPGs that isn't commonly found in Adventure games, is precisely what most "cRPG fans" stopped caring about several years ago.

I blame Planescape Torment and the rest of the Infinity engine games.

Ultima 7 was also a bellwether in that it was the most praised and loved Ultima ever, and yet had by far the weakest combat/development of any Ultima up to that point. It made great strides towards being an adventure game and away from being a cRPG, and not coincidentally it made great strides towards being widely popular. People like adventure games. (Though getting them to admit it is like pulling teeth.)

I also blame burnout. There was so much combat in earlier cRPGs that old schoolers simply got sick of it, and stopped caring about it entirely. At that point they switched from being cRPG fans to being Adventure game fans, but they didn't realize it and refuse to admit it. But it is obvious.

My lithmus test is whether someone can enjoy roguelike games like Angband or Nethack. If you can, then you are capable of appreciating good tactical combat / character development engines. If you can't enjoy them, then you are an adventure game fan who has a misconception of what cRPGs are.

And no, I don't mean that cRPGs can't or shouldn't contain stories. I mean that if that is the only reason you like them, then you are an adventure game fan. And as far as the infinity engine games go, there was nothing but story to like. The combat was obviously uncompelling to say the least, which by extension means the development was uncompelling (since development is in terms of combat ability almost entirely).

[Rune_74]

Misconception as to who's belief of what cRpg is? Roleplayng means to take the control of/pretend to be...a person etc. I don't believe the combat engine character development decides that a game is a CRpg, I just think that decides on what kind of cRpg it is, some are stat heavy and some are story heavy. In all, any game you control someone and develop them through out the game is a cRpg, not just the ones that feature stat heavy engines.

One of the problems with games in general is that people believe that one cannot live with the other when it comes to different genres melding together, where in reality you need that to make fresh and interesting worlds. Mass effect does this quite nicely as an example of a new game that plays well and could be called both an rpg and an adventure game.