Avernum?

[Painted Lady]

Could I please get some advice from those of you who have played Avernum before? I am really desperate for an Eschalon fix. In the meantime I am trying to find some way to pass the time until Book II comes out.

I downloaded the Avernum 6 demo and am trying really hard to love the game. Is it worth my time to hang with it? Would I like it better if I started with Avernum 1 and worked my way forward? Is it worth the effort?

Thanks in advance for your help....

[IJBall]

Could I please get some advice from those of you who have played Avernum before? I am really desperate for an Eschalon fix. In the meantime I am trying to find some way to pass the time until Book II comes out.

I downloaded the Avernum 6 demo and am trying really hard to love the game. Is it worth my time to hang with it? Would I like it better if I started with Avernum 1 and worked my way forward? Is it worth the effort?

Thanks in advance for your help....

I'm in a similar circumstance, as I came to Avernum 6 (I'll call it A6, from here on in...) from the Ultima III/IV -> Eschalon: Book I -> A6 direction, as opposed to some around here who've come at this from the Avernum series -> Eschalon series direction.

In answer to your middle question, A6 is the first in the series I've played, and I haven't felt like I've missed anything not playing the earlier ones. Perusing Spiderweb Software's boards, it seems like Avernum 4 might involve the same game world, so I may go and play that one after A6. But I don't plan on going back to any of the other earlier pre-A6 Avernum games at this time.

Anyway, it took some getting used to, but I've definitely stuck with A6 since I started playing the Demo about a month ago, having since bought the game about a week ago (and I've been playing it pretty much most of the time since then!).

I think the advantage of A6 is that it's *BIG* - almost *too* big, I'd say - but you definitely get you money's worth out of this game. I've been playing it solid for a week now, and I'm still only about halfway through the game. But there are a ridiculous number of side-quests in this thing - lots of stuff to keep you occupied for hours and hours. It literally seems to dwarf the size of E:B1 (which I don't have a problem with - Spiderweb has had over a decade (and a half?) to build these games; E:B1 was a "proof of concept" game, so there's no way it could be as big as A6's gameworld!)

That said, A6 definitely suffers in comparison to Eschalon: Book I (E:B1) in some sort of fundamental game-mechanics ways, IMHO. But these are some of the things that bug me about A6:

• 4-man party-based game (I know some people prefer them, but I really prefer the singe-character game interface of E:B1;
  that said, I think it'd be cool if someone would design a 2-character party-based game - I think a turn-based CRPG with one fighter/ranger/thief character, and one mage/cleric character, could kick butt, and wouldn't be as tedious as 4- (or 8-! like Ultima IV!!) character party-based CRPGs).
• not enough spell-slots: E:B1's giving you up to 8-10 spell slots is vastly preferable to A6's 4-button spell(/battle skill) interface
• in fact, there aren't enough buttons (e.g. for weapons & spells) or inventory slots, in general, I find...
• dialogue treating you like you're a single adventurer, when you're clearly a party of 4 (this is a minor pet peeve, but I don't know why A6's author chose to script dialogue that way!)
• graphics: E:B1's are wildly better (though I actually think A6's aren't bad, and this is a minor issue in my book)

But I think you should stick with it - I started over 3 times before I started figuring out how to build a party of characters that satisfied me. And from reading the Spiderweb boards, I've subsequently learned ways to build an even better party of characters the next time I play A6...

Anyway, I've certainly enjoyed A6.

Because it's such a *huge* game, I suspect it will have much lower replay value for me than E:B1 did.

[Randomizer]

Avernum 1 to 3 use a completely different game engine and map system than Avernum 4 to 6 so even though you are continuing a storyline they might as well be separate games.

Avernum 1 to 3 have a system where in the wilderness you go to a separate map for combat and a separate map for entering towns and dungeons. Avernum 4 to 6 use a seamless world like Eschalon. Graphics are never going to match Eschalon or most other games.

Action point systems are different and the number of actions points needed changes in the later games. So read the instructions since each game is slightly different.

Spells change with the earlier 3 games having different levels for each spell where the higher levels give different effects. More targets and more damage for attacks spells, increased defense for protection spells, web spells goes from slowing targets to paralysis. The last 3 games just add increased damage or spell duration.

Avernum 5 and 6 have battle disciplines which are specialized actions that can be done as you gain more weapon skills. It makes it more fun for fighters.

You can use few characters if you want and those are challenge games. Playing with only one character is hard at the start but gets easier as you become more powerful.

All the games are huge and you can spend lots of hours playing because of all the places to visit and side quests. There is some replayability with trying different parties or handicapping yourself with all magic users, all priest spells, no magic, etc.

Avernum 4 is considered the worst game of the lot in terms of plot. Avernum 2 is generally considered the best plot.

[Evnissyen]

Plot is not nearly among the most important things in a game.

What matters is narrative, characters, atmosphere, gameplay and visuals.

Comparatively, plot is nothing.

That said... I think it's a bad idea to go from A6 to A4, for 2 reasons: 1. Yes, it's the same map. 2. Like Randomizer mentioned, no fighting disciplines... also, fewer skill elements.

A5 has a different map and you play as an empire warrior, and it has a number of the nice extra skills that you see in A6. It's also generally a more interesting play, I feel. I'd suggest going there next.

Also, if it appeals to you: like A6, A5 has an editor so you can alter your character if something seems injust or you're just not satisfied with something.

You should download the demos and see for yourself. I have to warn you: After A6, as 'primitive' as the graphics are, you're going to be disappointed with A4 and A5. They're considerably more primitive.

As for my opinion on A6: it's hard to say. I seem to be suffering from Geneforge and Avernum fatigue at this point, therefore the last installment of each series has felt less gripping to me. Because of this: this fact that I stopped playing A6 at some point in the Occupied Lands should be taken with a grain of salt. Like the previous games (and like Eschalon to an extent), there are many things that don't make sense in terms of how powerful your foes are represented in the story and how they actually fare once you meet them... not too realistic. But... whatever. It's a game.

And, yes, it is large.

And, yes, I think it's a good game well worth your time.

[Painted Lady]

Thank you all so much for your feedback. I think I'll hang with A6 for a while longer (unless, of course, Book II miraculously appears tomorrow). Maybe I just have to get over the way a party of four is addressed as one person and the fact that the fighting is weird with four people alternating actions unless you intervene. I definitely have a lot of adjusting to do because I'm so spoiled with Eschalon

[Dragonlady]

Yes, there are tons of side quests to do. I'm doing two different versions, one with 4 people and one with just one character. The single character, as was said, is hard at first and you have to "call x" to help you. (priest - an undead type with good hits) or mage - that gets you an animal. The only problem I found with singleton so far is not being able to carry much stuff around. I use the area by the Portal to drop stuff off or come back if I find I need something.

There are many areas where either 4 or 1 (or other combination) have problems due to lack of levels. I have to make notes to come back later. I'm annoyed at that these days. I have found as a single player you go up levels MUCH faster. In both games (one on laptop, one on main computer) I'm still only in the first third of the game. I've been in the main cave, the western and eastern one. Still tons to do.

Much rather play/beta test Book 2 though.

[Evnissyen]

I forgot about Painted's question as to whether or not she should go back and start with Avernum 1. I think this is usually a bad idea since the graphics are very, very primitive and the interface is highly problematic, and therefore the game is difficult for most people to get into. Download the demo and you'll see.

A2 and A3 look/feel the same as A1.

I've always made the suggestion that people should start with the most recent in the series first, then work backwards. My argument: the originals are more primitive (and in A1's case: dramatically more primitive) and therefore might turn the player off. If the player is drawn in: it has a tendency to instill in him or her the urge to play the earlier games despite the flaws.

It isn't until Avernum 4 onward, and Geneforge 3 onward, that there are any changes in graphics and/or interface . . . also I've heard G3 and A4 went the more linear approach after their predecessors were more wanderable. I've always found problems with lack of linearity since it makes me feel lost... and in the original Geneforge, if you don't go to the right areas at the right time (and it doesn't even hint to you that you should go to any one area before any other) you can end up going through a good number of areas and gaining no experience at all... which is just not fun. That happened to me in G1.

Speaking of Geneforge: this is the best route to go if you prefer singletons (although, as Dragonlady pointed out, you can also play as a singleton in the Avernum games -- I've never done it myself, I almost always play with 3 characters and when I don't I play with 2... singletons are considered a challenge for Avernum).

The best in the Geneforge series, in my opinion, is the final one, Geneforge 5. Improved graphics, improved interface. Same interface as Avernum 6. However... it's considerably more difficult than its predecessors (the demo's easy, it gets very tough after the demo)... I usually play Spiderweb games on Hard, but G5 I had to play on Casual (which used to be called Easy) and still had a hard time. So in that respect you might actually prefer to start the Geneforge series with G4, I don't know, you'll have to decide for yourself after looking at the demos which one most appeals to you.

...Unless you're absolutely uninterested in the Geneforge series.

So... yes, have fun with A6 and then look at the demos to decide which one to play next (if Eschalon II isn't out by then).

[Kreador Freeaxe]

I came to Avernum with 6, while looking for something to tide me over until Book II, and after some initial confusion, I found it a pretty enjoyable game. I finished (at least one version of the ending) with my second attempted party. There is a lot to do, certainly, and figuring out some things (like once you can use the pylons, they'll port you back to the Portal Keep, as well as the portal there sending you to the pylons; at first, I thought it was 1-way and was annoyed by walking back all the time) makes it much less boring to get around. I thought there was plenty of background included in the dialogs to keep me informed and amused about the backstory of Avernum, without ever having looked at the previous games.

For me, it was well worth the money to pick it up. I also did find the method of learning that you'd reached the end of the demo section amusing, when the guard at Almaria looks at the scroll and says that you're apparently on the Demo list, and you'll have to come back later.

[Evnissyen]

Yeah, Jeff does cute things in the Avernum games (and Nethergate) with the demo. Sometimes it's the Demo Demon.

Everyone loves the GIFTS, too... the GIFTS have appeared in every one of the Avernum games. It's always a pleasure when you find them... because, you know, you always know you're going to run into them at some point.

"You're cute!"

...And then there's people like Hrickis... who keep popping up, and you think... aw, hell... it's this jerk, again. Well, I'm just going to have to kill him yet again.

In this game he happens to be rather annoyingly difficult to find.

I like the kid with the bow who shows up every once in a while, I forget his name. He's a real sport.

I also love the whole Great Portal scene. If you disregard your commander's instructions all the way through, it's hilarious.

[Rush]

Been reading through the posts. Had not realized there were so many MAC users/owners here. I am on Windows, and have to wait for Spring to try out Avernum 6.

---Rush.

[idlewaster]

One of the really nice things with Avernum 6 is that you can play it with full 2560x1600 resolution on a 30'' screen ...

Hermann.