Dragon Age: Origins

[Evnissyen]

Okay, I decided I should start a new thread on this game since the old thread is quite old. Really old. Pre-release old.

Of those here who've played the game: have you found Dragon Age: Origins as disappointing as I have? I mean... the graphics, rendering and animation really aren't that much better than NwN2, there's no weather, no passage of time (sun & moon movement)... graphically there doesn't seem much improvement (although that annoying lacuna below the neck is no longer there)... plus far fewer spells (making mages a lot less fun), fewer learnable techniques/talents... character-building isn't much better, either. (And only a few voices, this time, though admittedly I haven't checked the website to see if anyone uploaded any voice packs . . . I can't adjust how tall or thin my character is . . . and they've gone back to NwN1-style men, except that now, not only do all the Humans look like Mr. Universe, but all the elves as well. Why do I have to play a muscle-bound guy? Surely not for realism's sake, considering the thin-boned elven women who get to swing around great-axes and greatswords and wear really heavy armor.)

Plus, the narrative is... well... lacking, in comparison to NwN2. The plot as well. I'm not big on plot, generally, but I have to admit that NwN2 had a pretty strong plot and that this plot really did make it that much better a game, whereas Dragon Age has a very thin one. (And it certainly doesn't help to have six different possible openings, although it's an interesting addition. Some of these are better than others.)

There are, of course, a bunch of improvements, in this game, over NwN2... but overall... I'm beginning to come to the opinion that NwN2 was a better game. And honestly: Dragon Age is getting a little tiresome.

Hopefully it'll pick up soon, but thinking back: I can't think of a high-point.

Some parts are a little too predictable, too. And sometimes deliberately so -- Hollywood-style, as if the developers were trying to ease us into what happens because they feel we'll like the game less if we're shocked or surprised.

I think one of the major problems, for me, is that I don't feel it's linear enough. It seems the developers were trying to create a balance between wanderability and linearity... I think the balance is okay, but I just would like a stronger narrative that pulled me in and got me really interested in the game.

On the positive side: the dialogue is a little better, generally. Also: I like how they've taken the intra-party banter and made it incidental (although placing some of the triggers just before an area's exit was a pretty bad idea)... but on the other hand: I miss my character being able to interact with the arguing companions, and having to determine what to say knowing that what you say will make one character like you more and another like you less . . . also, the banter is not scripted, it's random, so it doesn't feel so much a part of the story, like the banter in NwN2 did. This is Planescape-style banter -- which is fine . . . but it would've been nice if they'd also kept the NwN2 style banter.

(Also: I actually like that they've gotten away from the AD&D stuff and built their own world with its own rules. However... honestly: one of the most annoying things about the game is the developers' attempt to tie in all the fantasy stuff with Christianity/Judaism/Islam. Maybe it's mostly personal prejudice, but really: this is annoying. Were the developers trying to make some sort of religious statement? The elves' paganism is only referred to in a really superficial way, and condemned throughout the game -- this anti-pagan attitude among the Humans would play better if we were able to play an actively pagan elf, as it seems we aren't, at least by level 9 where I am now. (The most we can do, so far as I've seen, is make the very rare sarcastic or angrily dismissive remark about having 'no use for your god', or what-not.))

(Actually, I think that, to an extent, the ubiquitous monotheism actually interferes with the fantasy world... maybe because I'm so used to these worlds being pagan, but also because it ties the world in too closely with the "real world".)

(Really: if they didn't want this world to be pagan: they didn't even have to mention religion at all.)

I don't know . . . I guess I've gone on long enough. I don't want to go into spoilers for those who haven't played the game, yet (and I don't want anyone spoiling anything for me, either, as I'm only at level 9 so far) . . . but . . . I was just wondering how other people feel about the game.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

I found the forest elf opening to be pretty boring, also, but the mage beginning can be interesting, and I really liked starting as a caste-less dwarf. Of course, that's pretty much the origin of the character I played back in high school from which I took my forum name, so I had a lot invested already.

Having never played either of the NWN games, I can't compare them, but I had fun with Dragon Age: Origins. There are some interesting choices to be made in the game later on, and if you haven't done the Mage's Tower quest yet further along in the campaign, you really will enjoy it, I think. Particularly the middle section--the sloth demon. It's my favorite part.

[Evnissyen]

I haven't finished the pagan elf opening yet, I will at some point, but I like the city elf opening (both the male version and the female version) better than that one thus far (I could change my mind when I go back and finish that one) and better than the mage opening.

By the way: I expect some people would probably say it's unfair to compare Dragon Age to NwN2, but for the record: I can't help but see Dragon Age as a kind of sequel to the NwN couplet, as NwN was to Icewind Dale, as that was to Baldur's Gate. And... I think it's totally fair to compare the two because I'm looking for RPG progression. I want to see Bioware's RPG's get better and better in all areas.

Not sure where KotOR fits in, here, in their RPG progression. I'll have to go see.

I'm trying to remember: Did NwN2 actually have weather? It occurs to me now that it actually didn't. But I do miss the movement of sun and moon.

Anyhow: thanks for giving me something to look forward to, Kreador. There are, actually, areas here and there that I like, like the Brecilian Forest, but in general I just don't feel drawn in. Oh, well.

I still feel that Dragon Age is generally a good game, though, and I generally like it. I think most of all I just wish it had a stronger narrative.

[Evnissyen]

By the way, I have to correct myself, here, about the graphics in Dragon Age, since I was just looking at NwN2, again: The graphics, rendering and animation in Dragon Age are not just a little better, they're much better than NwN2's, and not only this but also faster . . . not to mention that the load times, of course, are way faster.

...I guess I forget quickly, o well.

On the other hand... there really aren't any cute butts in Dragon Age. I miss the women with cute butts.

Bring 'em back Bioware!

[Arkos]

I've never played Neverwinter Nights 2, but as it's a different game made by a different company than Dragon Age Origins, I don't know if it's fair to compare them so closely. (Also, at least Dragon Age doesn't have a 'rocks fall, everyone dies' ending.)

As for the religion aspect, I'm not sure what your complaint is. Yes, the faiths in Thedas have real-world counterparts, just as the nations and cultures do (Orlais is obviously France, while Fereldan is England, Antiva is Italy, etc.). But I don't think the devs had any sort of 'message' at all. No one faith is depicted as better or 'more right' than any other. The Chantry is much more popular in Fereldan, so it gets much more of the spotlight than the faith of the dwarves, elves, or quanari. Most of the information on the elven gods can be found in the codex, assuming you thoroughly explore the Dalish Elf camp.

[Evnissyen]

But there's so little exploration of the Elven deities.

I can imagine that religious people might find a similar offensiveness, in that the religion is treated as a discriminatory one that is out to dominate all races, but then again: this is how things are in real life.

...Except that all world religions -- except, I suppose, in deepest Africa (and among the Australian aborigines) -- are monotheistic.

The problem I have is how much monotheism is pushed. "The Maker." "So let it be." "Don't lose your faith now!" "It's our duty to educate the ignorant." "Maker bless you." ...Not to mention the incantations. Do they mention elves? No, only in the "dissonant verses."

Spoiler:
Once you get to Redcliffe there're two options for an elven character: 1. When speaking to one of the main characters, make reference to his "Maker" by saying "I've no use for your god", and 2. After the fight, when the head of the Chantry says her prayer, you have two options for how to respond: "So let it be" (or something like that) or else [stay silent] (which has no apparent consequence: even Leliana doesn't disapprove over this).

My problem is that monotheism (and since this is a Western game: I read this as Christianity) is being forced upon us. It's disturbing. From the beginning, this was set up as a fantasy RPG, not a metaphorical play on our own world.

I admit I could be overreacting. I've always been highly aware of this possibility. But it still bothers me. I don't like religion interfering with computer games.

As for the companies that put out NWN & Dragon Age: Both are Bioware products.

Another problem I have with this game is that there's no reason whatsoever why our hero(ine) should be the leader of the gang. If anyone should be leader it should be Alistair. But since only our character can be leader: a reason for this should have been established from the beginning. This was done very well in NwN2. It was not done in DA:O.

Like I've said before: Perhaps the comparison between the two games is unfair to an extent, but again: the reason I make the comparison is that NwN2 was the last fantasy RPG they made. So it's only natural that one see DA:O as the sequel.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Um, the third largest religion in our world is Hinduism, which is not monotheistic.

As for why they use these elements in DA:O, I don't know. It annoyed me much of the time. But not nearly as much as it clearly annoys you. Did you save the guy in the cage in Lothering? He provides another interesting world view for you.

[ManusDei]

My problem is that monotheism (and since this is a Western game: I read this as Christianity) is being forced upon us. It's disturbing. From the beginning, this was set up as a fantasy RPG, not a metaphorical play on our own world.

Well, that might be a nice change for once, a fantasy RPG with monotheism .

Every time I saw monotheism in RPGs, it was always some bad guy plot or inquisition like.

PS : I didn't play DA:O

[Arkos]

But there's so little exploration of the Elven deities.

Only because it's a very minor faith in Fereldan. Only the Dalish elves follow it. The game mentions numerous times that the Dalish are small in number and have forgotten most of their heritage and culture (including their religion) over time.

The problem I have is how much monotheism is pushed. "The Maker." "So let it be." "Don't lose your faith now!" "It's our duty to educate the ignorant." "Maker bless you." ...Not to mention the incantations. Do they mention elves? No, only in the "dissonant verses."

I seriously think you are way overreacting to this. I am a hardcore atheist, and I do not at all feel that the devs are 'pushing' monotheism on us. Yeah, most of the people of Fereldan believe in the Chantry, so you hear a lot of "Maker this" and "Maker that" in the game. But that's because it's the dominant faith. Sten of the Qunari has his own faith and references it often. When you speak with the dwarves, they generally say things like "By the stone!" and "May the ancestors watch over you" instead. Dalish elves say things like "Creators be with you" and such.

Dragon Age is NOT based on the real middle ages, although it's clear it's heavily influenced by it. But if it WERE based on the real middle ages, would you not expect most of the average citizens to be Christian?

Besides which, at no point in the game is any real evidence shown that the Maker is even real. I have encountered numerous debates online on this. Some think the Maker is just a very powerful Fade spirit. Some think Andraste was just a mage. If the devs were really trying to 'force' the view of monotheism on us, the Maker would most definitely be real and he would play a pivotal role in the game.

As for the companies that put out NWN & Dragon Age: Both are Bioware products.

NWN 1 was made by Bioware. You keep referencing the second game specifically, which was made by Obsidian. The upcoming third game is going to be made by Cryptic.

Another problem I have with this game is that there's no reason whatsoever why our hero(ine) should be the leader of the gang. If anyone should be leader it should be Alistair. But since only our character can be leader: a reason for this should have been established from the beginning. This was done very well in NwN2. It was not done in DA:O.

Actually, there is. Alistair even points out he is not comfortable leading, and this becomes a big plot point later on when you find out about his past. (And if you've been to Redcliffe Village, you should all ready know that, assuming he was in your party at the time).

Like I've said before: Perhaps the comparison between the two games is unfair to an extent, but again: the reason I make the comparison is that NwN2 was the last fantasy RPG they made. So it's only natural that one see DA:O as the sequel.

Again, Bioware did not make NWN2. The last RPG they made before Dragon Age was Mass Effect in 2007 (Dragon Age came out in 2009). Knights of the Old Republic was before that in 2003.

In truth, Dragon Age is often referred to by Bioware as being the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate, not Neverwinter. So if you want to make direct comparisons, it seems BG is what they were going for, not NWN.

Every time I saw monotheism in RPGs, it was always some bad guy plot or inquisition like.

He's right. In just about any JRPG that has monotheism, it's generally shown as pure evil. Not just the god itself, but usually all of its clerics, as well. Take Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy 10, or just about any of the Breath of Fire games. The fact that the Maker is not the final boss in Dragon Age and the people of the Chantry are shown to have both good and bad within them was kind of refreshing, in my opinion.

[Evnissyen]

Okay, this'll probably be another long post.

First, Kreador:

Hinduism: Yes, you're right, actually. My mistake (and a major one at that, sigh...).

As for the Sten: yeah, amusing conversations like "You're a woman, yet you fight. One of these things cannot be true." (Yes, I chose a woman, first run. Yes, I like playing female characters . . . I also very much dislike playing muscle-bound men. It's not me.) However... nothing yet about his religion. A little about his culture, his fondness for cookies... no religious beliefs, yet. I'll look forward to it.)

Arkos:

It's really not that I feel oppressed, or anything. It's just that there's something about it that I find annoying, I'm still not sure what exactly it is. There's something out-of-place about it.

I mean, Dostoevsky would go on and on about his Christian faith... and on and on... but did I resent it? Not at all. He was being honest.

There're a bunch of different things, here. DA:O is much more entertainment than art, so it can't be as free with stuff like this without placing it in a concrete context. (And, no, I don't like the idea that I feel like I'm starting to side with Roger Ebert's "video games can't be art" argument: I've always felt there are artistic elements to Planescape and The Witcher, and I've always felt that developers should actively try to make computer games a form of art: as contradictory as it might seem to some people.)

On Bioware. My copy of NwN2 includes a credit to BioWare Corp. (As well as Obsidian, Atari and Hasbro.) It could be that I'm ignorant of precisely the role BioWare played in the development of this game. My understanding, I think, was that Atari was the first to approach BioWare to produce a sequel, then BioWare got Obsidian involved and they cooperatively developed the game, while Atari helped fund the project and then distribute the end product.

(BioWare also, of course, has what appears to be the primary (if not 'official') forums dedicated to NwN2.)

I haven't really studied the whole thing, so... feel free to put me straight on the role(s) of each player, if you like.

The promotion of DA:O as a successor to Baldur's Gate I took as a highly inflated b.s. kind of marketing strategy. I can't truly shoot down the comparison until I play more of Baldur's Gate, but... from what I've read of people's response to this: I don't think there're very many people who take that suggestion seriously.

On a game based in the Middle Ages: Yes, if the developers had approached it that way: the religion would make total sense. The 'Frenchification' of Orlais and its people's accents would make total sense. Were it based on a planet earth Middle Ages: Christianity would be necessary, with Judaism as a counterpoint and probably at least a fringe mention of Islam.

But it's not. It's not Earth. So... inevitably I start thinking: If this isn't Earth . . . why Christianity?

I mean... because there're elements here that are not just mere coincidence. The dominant religion in Ferelden is clearly based on Christianity.

But . . . yeah, I still feel like I'm over-reacting. Yet: I still cannot shake this feeling of being a little annoyed by it, that it doesn't really belong there in the form it's presented in.

Anyhow...

[Arkos]

However... nothing yet about his religion. A little about his culture, his fondness for cookies... no religious beliefs, yet. I'll look forward to it.)

Yes, admittedly, it can be difficult to get Sten to open up. Be firm with him, don't waffle or seem unsure of yourself. If you find any paintings, give them to him. If you can get enough approval, you can do his sidequest, and that helps open him up quite a bit.

But it's not. It's not Earth. So... inevitably I start thinking: If this isn't Earth . . . why Christianity?

I mean... because there're elements here that are not just mere coincidence. The dominant religion in Ferelden is clearly based on Christianity.

I don't know for sure. But were I to guess, I'd say familiarity. I run lots of D&D games, and when making a new world, it's very easy to base a faith in my world on a real one, to make it easier to relate to. The vast majority of North Americans are Christian and even those who are not are still (usually) quite familiar with it. So basing the Chantry on Christianity makes it easier to understand for most people. An unseen creator, a martyr savior, someone close to that savior betraying them, etc. Had they instead made the Chantry totally alien, it would have been difficult for the average player to relate to, I think.

[Evnissyen]

I like how The Witcher handled it. Two human cults in the game . . . no deity mentioned. If I remember right, the followers spoke in metaphor rather than mentioning a "maker" or anything similarly direct.

In DA:O, I think it's not actually the existence of a monotheistic belief in Ferelden that bothers me -- I'm fine with the allusion, like in The Witcher -- I think it's specifically the name "Maker" that bothers me. The specificity. For some reason, it bugs me. I dunno.

Latest thing...

Now I've got Leliana jealous of Alistair. She's demanding my character 'choose between them'. Sigh... .

I chose Leliana, of course. Alright, so I made my character a lesbian. What can I say?

But... Tower of the Magi is next. I'll let you know, Kreador.

[Javolenus]

Hi All,

Well I'm not a veteran RPG gamer and only recently got into exploring this genre. I bought DA:O a few weeks ago and was initially impressed with the graphics. But after a few hours I had the game uninstalled. Here's why:

1. Blood. There's too much of it. It's just silly. Of course hand-to-hand combat is bloody, but fountains of blood spewing everywhere? Just reminded me of that old Python sketch 'Salad Days' (showing my age). Basically, I found wading through 300 buckets of blood in the first few hours a bit, well, daft.
2. Story. I admit it's my fault for being over 18 years old but the story just didn't interest me. Neither did the characters.
3. Combat. Too much. I just got bored with all the fighting.
4. Choices. What drew me to the game was the hype surrounding choices. But I never got to make any real choices (except stuff like what to call the dog). Seems to me it doesn't matter what choice you make, you'll be wading through blood within 30 seconds anyway.
5. Dialogue. I was expecting top-notch dialgoue but I found it limited in scope and style. This, combined with the story, made it difficult for me to engage with the game.

(Before this game I tried out The Witcher. I didn't finish that game but I rate in more highly than DA:O, even though DA:O has better graphics. The great thing about The Witcher is that you can have Polish dialogue with English subtitles, which not only adds atmosphere, but also allows you to follow the story without getting irritated by bad voice acting.)

I think the problem is that commercial products seek mass appeal. There's no room for niche markets. The result is a kind of bland, formulaic, one-size-fits-all approach. Chances are, if you're old enough to be fed up with TV, radio, cinema etc., you're probably gonna be fed up with most 'big production' pc games. It's just not realistic to expect too much from he mainstream in this genre, apart from stunning visuals.

[Arkos]

Oh, wow. Then you'll really, really, really hate DA2 then. There's so much gore as to make the first game look tame. Enemies actually explode into large chunks half of the time.

Anyway, it is possible to turn off persistent gore in the options screen, so your characters aren't splattered in it after every battle.

Other that, I don't have much to say. However, I actually loved Dragon Age Origins for all of the reasons you gave for not liking it (except the blood, I really don't care about that). I loved the story, characters, choices, dialogue, and even the combat. I suppose it's just a matter of taste, though.

You kind of sound like you had certain impressions of the game beforehand, and it didn't live up to what you expected. I'm curious, though, what were you expecting in terms of story, characters, choices, dialogue and combat?

[Javolenus]

Yeah, I guess I did have expectations about DA:O that didn't quite work out for me. But to be fair on DA:O, I didn't get very far with the story, so maybe it improved later on. I actually really liked the game at first and still do think it looks and sounds great.

The story and characters seemed overly simple to me. In fact, I ended up clicking randomly on any dialogue choice and, well, it didn't seem to have much impact: whatever choice I made I was fighting again within 30 seconds. And all that blood! It seemed to me that in DA:O the answer to all problems is violence. And so I couldn't see much difference between the various races/cultures or good guys/bad guys.

If you take a mythical story like Beowulf, there's lots and lots of build up to the fights with monsters. You get chance to know the characters and appreciate the politics and culture of their society. You get to care what happens. The tension builds to a climax, and then is released. The characters grow, change, and by the time the next monster comes along, Beowulf is a different person - and he needs help. In order to overcome the evil, real sacrifices need to be made. Alongside all this are elements of jealousy, hubris, human folly, personal sacrifice etc. Even the monsters are 'explained' and it's possible to feel a kind of sympathy for them. And there are a consequences: there is no casual slaughter - every death has repercussions.

My feeling was that DA:O is for younger people with more energy than me! I thought it would be a game that presented you with tactical, strategic, moral, personal choices that had high impact on the story, character, and gameplay. But from a purely personal viewpoint, I felt this was not the case. But maybe I needed to stick with the game longer for these factors to kick in?

But I felt unable to 'settle into' my character and the game world due to constant combat. I don't mind gameplaying combat but I felt DA:O over did it. I thought I would like the combat system in DA:O, where you can pause the action and consider you're next move - and at first I did. But I soon got bored with the repetition. Some combats (like the one in the tower involving fire traps and so on) seemed really hard. I'd manage to make my way through eventually and then - oh no, I have to do it all again! And again!! And again!!! And so, what have I been doing for the last hour? Staring at a blood-red screen going click, click, click. Nah! It's just excessive!

I started a separate thread on what I'm looking for in an rpg in the hope of learning more about the genre.

I really wanted to like DA:O and maybe, just maybe, I'll try it again. I'm not a veteran rpg gamer so I was probably expecting too much - or perhaps I misinterpreted the hype.