Do you want loot/pick lock/disable trap to be changed ?

[Axxaxx]

Time for a poll !!!

I want to know if you think the way Eschalon book I treats pick locks/disable traps/open chest is flawed or not. I want to know if you like saving before each of these action and reloading when you don't like the result, or, if you want this to change in a more restrictive/expansive way because you don't like the way it works now.

The possibilities are a lot, limiting reloads, changing the loot system, making pick lock a fixed number, same thing for disabling traps and probably many more.

So the question is:

Do you like the eschalon book I reroll system where you can save before a door/trap/chest and immediately reload if the result doesn't satisfy you
or
you want this changed because you think it's broken ?
(whether by changing the rolling method or the save/load system or the loot/trap/locks system doesn't matter, I just want to know if you think things should stay like they are or change)

[Axxaxx]

Me first. Yes change it, it's broken.

fast and clear.

[mkreku]

I wouldn't mind for something to be done to stop myself from abusing the system.. I can't help it, it's the way I am!

[jinnes]

I've sounded off about this in other threads, but Yes -- change it. People are tempted to re-roll because the systems that are rerollable (loot, lockpicking, etc) are amenable to being abused. They rely too heavily on randomness and they don't reward significant achievements (the loot system) or skill point investment (lockpicking and skullduggery) sufficiently.

[krisklef]

Kind of a broad question: there might be some ways to improve the system, especially with lockpicking skill or percentages or whatever.

However, I'll assume the spirit of the poll question centers on reloading to achieve the desired result, thus negating the randomness.

And on that point, I cannot say whether it could be improved, only that I do not think it is broken, only exploitable. Therefore, I believe change is not necessary.

[acoustibop]

I'd agree to reworking the lock picking thing etc, although I wouldn't say it's broken; it just wasn't well enough worked out in the first place. For a first game from a new, small developer, why would you expect a perfect product when even big, experienced developers can't produce this?

I wouldn't agree, however, to the limitations on quick saving that have been mooted; I think any problems people feel are arising from this should be dealt with more directly - as in reworking the lock picking system, etc.

[realmzmaster]

I have also sounded off about this in other threads. I do not believe it is broke, so I see no reason to change it. I agree with krisklef. The system is exploitable, but not broken.

But, I have yet to find a CRPG that could not be exploited in some fashion.

[Randomizer]

The system is kind of broken in that you can have one level in the two skills and then reload until it works. This maximizes experience if you have the patience. I know the hardcore system will eliminate that abuse.

I would prefer having you need the minimum level to open a lock/trap to get experience. Below that level you have to break it with a spell or weapon if you really want it now.

This is the way Spiderweb games do it.

[Asgard The Elder]

I am going to put a good two cents worth in this.
LEAVE IT ALONE IT AIN'T BROKE
The first time through the game I played it straight and accepted what showed up, well what I ended up with was a great big load of crap, very few nice items were to be found if there was anything in the barrel or chest to begin with - yuk.
The second time through I used the quick save and reload option a lot which provided a few more goodies. As far as traps . . well . . I usually just suffered the posion and bomb damage however the disease that I caught a the lower levels was a pain that I reloaded around.

[Axxaxx]

I am going to put a good two cents worth in this.
LEAVE IT ALONE IT AIN'T BROKE
The first time through the game I played it straight and accepted what showed up, well what I ended up with was a great big load of crap, very few nice items were to be found if there was anything in the barrel or chest to begin with - yuk.
The second time through I used the quick save and reload option a lot which provided a few more goodies. As far as traps . . well . . I usually just suffered the posion and bomb damage however the disease that I caught a the lower levels was a pain that I reloaded around.

My point is that this should be a ROLE PLAYING GAME, not click kill loot reload click kill loot...I thought a more strict system would bring a little less easyness in the game.

Well probably, of course, who knows.

[confused1]

The System isn't broke, but yes, sometimes it is a pain. That's why you invest points in the spell to unlock doors and chests. Max it out and you shouldn't have a problem again.

[Asgard The Elder]

I am going to put a good two cents worth in this.
LEAVE IT ALONE IT AIN'T BROKE
The first time through the game I played it straight and accepted what showed up, well what I ended up with was a great big load of crap, very few nice items were to be found if there was anything in the barrel or chest to begin with - yuk.
The second time through I used the quick save and reload option a lot which provided a few more goodies. As far as traps . . well . . I usually just suffered the posion and bomb damage however the disease that I caught a the lower levels was a pain that I reloaded around.

My point is that this should be a ROLE PLAYING GAME, not click kill loot reload click kill loot...I thought a more strict system would bring a little less easyness in the game.

Well probably, of course, who knows.

Look at my statement, the first time through I played the game straight as it was intended and did not use the quick save / reload cheat to obtain more or better treasure. Then I went back and replayed the game to see how different things could be and used every ounce of help that my experience and the experience of others brings, including the reload option. I have had loads of fun doing both and have really received my moneys worth of pleasure out of this game. Right now I am on my fifth romp through the world of Eschalon attempting different player attribute combinations and not using the quick save and restore option. I have had more fun with this game than many RPG's that were not a replayable
For my money the system is fine and not broke, it just depends upon how you the game player aproaches the game.

[Kaja Rainbow]

There's one issue I really want to see addressed that I don't remember being brought up much: XP from locks/traps. I'd really like it to stay at a base amount determined by the lock's difficulty instead of going down as my chances of success go up. I like playing thieves, but I don't want to lose XP by being skilled at it. Essentially, it's a sort of punishment for making a character actually good at what they do.

Also, I'd like more weighted loot distribution--the more guarded stuff being better. Not that the outside chance of finding something awesome in an unexpected place isn't neat, and sometimes people do put more value on stuff than they should. But Eschalon's loot randomization felt like it didn't have enough rhyme or reason to it. In general, people lock up their valuables (when they aren't absent-mindedly forgetting they put it on the table or something) and random corpses in the wilderness will tend to be picked clean if you aren't lucky enough to be the first to them.

Forget all the proposals to 'fix' the system to 'prevent' abuses. I'll bump up my thief-type skills all the way up when save-and-reload with low skilsl doesn't give more XP payoff than high skills. And I'll stop reloading when loot matches probability more.

Don't hand-code loot, but it might be worthwhile fixing the ranges of what can be found in particular places.

The accessibility of alternative methods to pass through the truly important doors is pretty good already. Keys and bashing and such. I wouldn't mind it if there were doors that required a base minimum to lockpick, but I don't really care, as long as the two issues I mentioned are addressed.

[Mongolian]

Look at my statement, the first time through I played the game straight as it was intended and did not use the quick save / reload cheat to obtain more or better treasure. Then I went back and replayed the game to see how different things could be and used every ounce of help that my experience and the experience of others brings, including the reload option. I have had loads of fun doing both and have really received my moneys worth of pleasure out of this game.

I think you have a perfect average perspective here. I played the game not redoing anything and was enjoying the game, then I remade a character and rerolled every battle/treasure pretty much. Sure, I pawned, but hours later, I realised it took the fun out of the game. Did i stop reloading things, no because that was simply part of the game. Eventually, I started to reroll less and less, but it just made my overall game experience unjoyable and yes became work! And despite being a huuuuuuuuge huge fan of turn-based games, it ruins the game rerolling every scenario.

SAVING EVERY MOVE OF THE GAME IS WRONG!!! this topic is mute until something is done about this.

[realmzmaster]

Why is saving every move of the game wrong? This is an opinion. I for one need the abilty to save whenever and wherever in the game. Why? Because I have three children (one in college, another is a web designer and the third a grammer school teacher) and a wife ( working on her master's thesis) who use the computers! Yes I have more than one. But, when you have 5 five people wanting to use three computers, one person cannot dominate a computer.

The ability to save at anytime is what attracted me long ago to Eschalon: Book I. If someone else needs the computer I can save and reload where I left off!

I will pick Dungeon Siege II as an example of the opposite. You can save at anytime in Dungeon Siege II, but upon reloading you will be placed back at the last city you passed through. This is fine as long as you have made it to the next transporter, so that you do not have slog through all the monsters again! But if you have to save before you reach that point you are stuck re-fighting every monster you already fought, because upon saving and re-loading the monster respawn. Which is why I now avoid these type of action-RPG games.

Are we going to go the way of the console games, where you can only save at certain points or certain places in the game. Been there and done that!

If you have ever played Wizardry, Might and Magic or the Bard's Tale you could only save at one place: an inn, but the monsters did not respawn. If you cleared out a dungeon level it stayed cleared. So in the early CRPG's it was not as big of a hassle, but as the games worlds got larger you either had to put more saves at strategic places (that was then at the whim of the designer what constituted a strategic save point example Alternate Reality:The City and Dungeon) or allow for saves anywhere at anytime (except combat and even then if the designer so chose). Some people like me save because it is necessary. I cannot look at my wife and say, "Sorry, you cannot have the computer to work on your thesis because I am not at the save point!"

The point is no one is making someone save after every move! This is a choice that is made by the individual. Yes the system is open to abuse if the person so chooses to abuse it. Every CRPG I have played has been subject to abuse from using the built-in console commands, cheats, taking advantage of an item duplication bug, using walkthroughs and others. But all of them have one common point, the person has to choose to use them . The same point with save/reload or re-rolling for treasure.

But, I have beaten this horse to death in other posts. I will leave it up to BW and Basilisk Games to decide what they will do. I have made my opinion known.