If cartography is a skill in the 3rd game, I won't buy it. Otherwise, I probably will. There's really only a certain amount of crap you can get away with before it becomes apparent that you hate your players. Requiring the waste of 5 skill points before you can get two crayons so you can draw land and water is just damn offensive.

That's all.

VETO!

(Seriously, Cartography is one of the first things I grew to love about this game series.)

While the OP is a little rude and over the top, I do share a certain sentiment with regards to having some sort of basic mapping ability. It'd be nice to assume that everyone starts out with "level 1" in Cartography, whether they take the skill or not. So a basic outlined map with no color would be perfectly acceptable. But giving everyone a fully colored and detailed map just because they whine about it is more than necessary.

What I'd find really entertaining would be if the basic map looked horrible... lines weren't drawn straight, details would be missing ,etc. As you added points into the skill, not only would color/detail be added, but the lines would start to straighten out and look more accurate. An expandable map with points of interest would be great too, but I suspect that's going to be relegated to the not-grantable-wishlist-feature category.

Please don't get rid if this skill. Gruevy, just because you're character only uses two crayons doesn't mean that ours do too. I know my character uses colored pencils... (Did I honestly just say that?) This skill is extremely useful, if you know how to use it, or even if you don't really know how to use it.

I'm not opposed to there being a minimap. I just hate the idea that I have to invest skill points, which I could be spending on things to keep me alive, on the skill that fills the map in. Especially when making a viable character requires the sort of trickery that these games do.

I'm not here to argue with anyone about it. I'm just saying that I bought and enjoyed the first two games, but I probably won't buy the 3rd one unless this is changed. When someone is in danger of losing my business, I figure it's better to let them know about it. Gives them one more piece of data to consider in the decision making process.

@Gruevy, my earlier post my have sounded rude, but I'm just trying to say that plenty of people love cartography, and that there would also be more people who would not buy it if cartography was taken out. [hint BW]Perhaps BW could be kind enough to add in a sailor or something, who can train your cartography[/hint BW]. That way you don't have to spend skill points to get your map.

I know I'm an oddball who actually doesn't care at all about the minimap. That said, I don't think it would be a bad idea in Book III if every player started with one level of cartography. Or, it could be a starting option in the difficulty settings whether you start with a level of cartography or not. That way those of us who like the way BW originally designed it continue to get our thrill from learning and gaining the minimap later in the game, and those who can't play without it aren't forced to use three starting skill points or a character editor to get the skill.

That would be a good compromise, actually - a "Level 1 in Cartography? [Yes/No]" game option at game's start (or anytime?...). It would even fit with storyline from the end of Book II (i.e. who's to say that you don't lose quite all of your skills at the end of the game this time?!).

Anyway, I approve of your suggestion, Kreador! (And I will add it to the 'Wishlist'...)

Im on the fence about it. At first i thought it was cool but looking back on it, spending 3 skill points on it, then if you want a real map, adding 5 more, is a bit excessive.

I like the start at level one idea, where the map is just god awful, then it gets much better the more points you put into it. (or the option to have it or not idea.)

I like this idea too. Finding someone to teach you more or having to put skill points into it is then an option to take or not. That potion we took long ago is supposed to be wearing off..I think?..and we'd remember more skills. Fine at level 1 if that's what has to make the game good to play.

I think that if it had a total of 5 levels or something, and you got a bigger increase per skill point, that'd work just fine. Sounds reasonable to me.

This could be a challenge in Book III like food/water, etc. are in Book II. In fact, I'd say make it an option to remove the skill entirely. You don't see it in your stats, you can't take it at level up, and the effects are as if you had it at a static level - maybe high enough to get maximum detail, but not to see enemies at range.

For my two cents worth, I like Kreadors idea. Of course I'm always in favor of having more options. The more the better, it certainly gives the game more replayability.

Well, here are my thoughts: Book I was praised in nearly every review for our idea of having a cartography skill that actually did something. I am not going to alter a basic design element for which the Eschalon games have become known for. It's just not that big of deal for 95% of players.

My compromise: I'll make sure a cartography trainer is in the very first village you arrive at- and I'll make sure a small stash of coins is conveniently hidden nearby for which anyone can buy that first skill with, if they want. If not, spend the gold on booze and Taurax steaks.

He'll be able to train to 5, hopefully, right? I guess that works, actually. Sounds like a reasonable tradeoff.