The Drunken Lizard Pub

Mmmmm, Taurax Steaks. Make sure the local establishment has some A1 handy as well.

CrazyBernie wrote:Mmmmm, Taurax Steaks. Make sure the local establishment has some A1 handy as well.

Just make sure those Taurax steaks are slow cooked over the pit and rubbed with Rudy's rub and im in! Ill meet you at the inn!

CrazyBernie wrote:Mmmmm, Taurax Steaks.

Too much gristle.

IJBall wrote:

CrazyBernie wrote:Mmmmm, Taurax Steaks.

Too much gristle.

Nah, just marinate it in beer and exotic spices for a few days and it'll soften right up.

BasiliskWrangler wrote:My compromise: I'll make sure a cartography trainer is in the very first village you arrive at- and I'll make sure a small stash of coins is conveniently hidden nearby for which anyone can buy that first skill with, if they want. If not, spend the gold on booze and Taurax steaks.

I ought to try this whole "Hint BW" BBCode more often... Much more often...

I like the cartography skill a lot. What I don't like is that investing points in it sacrifices character power for convenience.

What I'd like to see in Book III is a division between combat skills and accessory skills. Eg. when your character gains a level he gets combat skill points as well as accessory skill points. Combat skill points could only be spent on combat-related abilities, such as spells and swordplay, while accessory skills could only be spend on non-combat abilities, such as haggling and cartography.

Ixnatifual wrote:I like the cartography skill a lot. What I don't like is that investing points in it sacrifices character power for convenience.

What I'd like to see in Book III is a division between combat skills and accessory skills. Eg. when your character gains a level he gets combat skill points as well as accessory skill points. Combat skill points could only be spent on combat-related abilities, such as spells and swordplay, while accessory skills could only be spend on non-combat abilities, such as haggling and cartography.

This suggestion has been made a number of times. In fact, I think I've signed on to one of the previous suggestions for a system like this (but I think that was well before Book II was released...).

Anyway, I think such a system has pluses and minuses. I think I'd prefer it, but there's something to be said for the current system too. All that said, I do not expect any change in the gameplay/character creation system that is as substantial as this to happen in Book III.

I expect BW may pursue such a system in a later game. But I don't expect this kind of system to ever make it in to the Eschalon series at this point. FWIW...

Ixnatifual wrote:I like the cartography skill a lot. What I don't like is that investing points in it sacrifices character power for convenience.

What I'd like to see in Book III is a division between combat skills and accessory skills. Eg. when your character gains a level he gets combat skill points as well as accessory skill points. Combat skill points could only be spent on combat-related abilities, such as spells and swordplay, while accessory skills could only be spend on non-combat abilities, such as haggling and cartography.

That system might work for a fighter or ranger. But in such a system, the combat skill points would be wasted and unused for a pure mage (which doesn't use weapons). Also when I play as a pure thief, I tend to plug most of my skill points into thief-related skills (hide-in-shadow, move silently, pick locks, etc), and only plug enough points into a weapon skill to get the feat. So a lot of weapon skill points would be wasted there too.

For the most part, I like the current system. It works well across all character classes. And I think BW's suggestion about having access to a cartography trainer early in the game and a nearby cache of loot solves it for me.

Quirky brain that I have, it occurs to me that since at the end of book II we're standing nearly naked in a jungle, the cartography trainer could be somebody we run into who's mapping the area--who may or may not be lost. Then you wonder if you really want to learn map making from him/her. As in Book I, there could be a quest attached as well, but this time let the quest reward be getting a level of cartography (if you took it at character creation, it's +1 or +2 levels, or you gain the skill if not).

MyGameCompany wrote:

Ixnatifual wrote:What I'd like to see in Book III is a division between combat skills and accessory skills. Eg. when your character gains a level he gets combat skill points as well as accessory skill points. Combat skill points could only be spent on combat-related abilities, such as spells and swordplay, while accessory skills could only be spend on non-combat abilities, such as haggling and cartography.

That system might work for a fighter or ranger. But in such a system, the combat skill points would be wasted and unused for a pure mage (which doesn't use weapons). Also when I play as a pure thief, I tend to plug most of my skill points into thief-related skills (hide-in-shadow, move silently, pick locks, etc), and only plug enough points into a weapon skill to get the feat. So a lot of weapon skill points would be wasted there too.

Ixnatifual was careful to include "spells" (i.e. Divination and Elemental Magicks) in his original proposal, so Mages & Healers would be covered OK under his conception of "Combat Skills".

The Rogue issue is trickier - were I to suggest designing this system to include them, I might include, say, Pick Locks and Hide In Shadows among the "core skills" (what Ixnatifual identifies as "combat skills"), while leaving stuff like Skullduggery and Move Silently in the "secondary skills" category along with skills like Cartography and Mercantile.

Anyway, this is all speculative and theoretical anyway because, as I said, I think there's almost no chance that BW will change the way character creation and skills operate between Book II and Book III.

(Though, that said, as I've put in the Wishlist - I hope BW goes back to giving us 20 Skill Points at character creation (a la Book I), and doesn't stick with the stingy 15 Skill Points at character creation (a la Book II)!... )

IJBall wrote:[
(Though, that said, as I've put in the Wishlist - I hope BW goes back to giving us 20 Skill Points at character creation (a la Book I), and doesn't stick with the stingy 15 Skill Points at character creation (a la Book II)!... )

I second this idea!

Although I have the sneaky suspicion BW will lower it to 10!

CrazyBernie wrote:What I'd find really entertaining would be if the basic map looked horrible... lines weren't drawn straight, details would be missing ,etc. As you added points into the skill, not only would color/detail be added, but the lines would start to straighten out and look more accurate. An expandable map with points of interest would be great too, but I suspect that's going to be relegated to the not-grantable-wishlist-feature category.

:Bernie, this idea is awesome. (The former more than the latter... but, yeah, being able to combine maps as you buy them would be cool... have a larger overland map with spaces that get filled up as you find the other pieces . . . this would be even better if the maps' borders didn't all go to the edge of the papyrus. ...So, like, you'd have maps of just towns, and maps of regions, and so you buy the town map to fill in the town on the overland map, and so forth.

...I think it'd be cool, too, if those maps weren't entirely accurate, either... but that might be too much to ask. There's some truth to what gruevy says about aggravating the player... problem is everybody's Aggravation Line is in a different place, so I don't see how a developer figures out just where to draw the line. (Of course most developers stay far away from it, which is not as much fun.) I do think BW does a pretty decent job, though, of walking right up to that line (literally... walking ), so I might be interested in hearing his secret... .

gruevy: Considering you get points throughout the entire game, and have more than enough to play around with if you choose wisely, I don’t see how it’s a big deal to spend points on cartography. I actually find it fun, gradually building up my skill so I can map more and more stuff.

One of the things about Eschalon is that you have to put at least a moderate amount of thought into what sort of character you want to play and how to achieve that kind of character. That’s part of the nature of the game, part of what makes the game so special.

(Maybe some better in-game explanation of the skills and a more accurate description of just how effective they are at doing what they do would help.)

(But... the only thing I’d want changed about Cartography would be the remapping that occurs when you lose your cartography sandals... either let us keep the improved mapping or else get rid of the cartography-boosting items?)

Shroom: Although I usually like options... if you make cartography an option I think it’s no longer a characteristic feature of the game.

My suggestion probably wouldn't work if it was simply "jammed" into the game without thought. The skill system and the way classes use them would likely need some tweaking for it to function really well. And while I was indeed careful to include spells as possibly being combat related, it's also worth noting that not all spells are. Fire Dart is clearly a combat ability, while Lockmelt isn't.

My thoughts on this thread

For a pre-game switch for cartography. Probably way to specific. The strength of this game IMHO is the flexibility and openness. However a switch that gives you a pre-game skill point bonus of 10 points at a 10% final score penalty or requires 2x the experience in the first two-three levels or a 2-3% experience penalty, would be a switch that better fit into the game philosophy and style.

As for dividing combat/support skills up, I think that also goes against the zeitgeist of this game. Having a focus of aptitude would where 3 or 4 points spent on a primary skill, will return 5 levels, and original learning cost is 1 or 2 instead of 3. This would make classes a bit more important without limiting mix and match characters. Or you get one extra point just to spend on your focus group/subrole/ occupation. One of which could be explorer who could spend it in just foraging or cartagraphy. Another could be tribal that could be spent with the medicine skill or lore. Tinkerer -Alchemy or Repair, Monk - unarmed or dodge. The first way might be minamally invasive, the second would take some-rebalancing and would make the game feel different, just no entirely so and may help people expore skills that they normally wouldn't

Freakin get rid of cartography:>

Frankly I think it's silly to have a skill that is to basically rob the player of one of the most basic of basic UI necessities and give it back to him halfway through the game.

Why not make a color bit skill where you only get 32bit color if you put 32 points in it and u move up from monochrome to EGA etc during the game?