Price

[Andiar]

i think the price for the game is too high. dont get me wrong, the gameplay value is about right but the production value is way off. i have noticed from the little time i have spent on this forum that some of the developers might have negative opinions about the "main stream" game industry. this is ENTIRELY understandable. i can go on and on for days about how pathetic PC gaming has become. but what strikes me as odd is why go around and charge so much for such a simple game. 20, 30$?!?!... comon. millions go into producing big games and they only charge 50-60$. it didnt really cost you guys anything to make this great game, why charge so much? is it plain and simple greed?

im a huge indie game supporter but the price you guys ask for has got some of us mad. one of the greatest things about indie games are the fact that they are seperated from all the corporate BS that goes on today. the price you guys set is very "un-indie". the price of this game should be 10$.

anyway, i didnt pay for this copy but i will when eb2 comes out to support you guys regardless of price. but lets just hope the price is more appropriate this time.

[Randomizer]

The price for this type of game is about right. http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/04/ ... -pt-1.htmlJeff Vogel of Spiderweb Games goes into much more detail about why this isn't that high a price. It takes over a year of time to produce this type of game. There aren't that many buyers so if this is the sole source of income then you want to be paid for your time and have some money so you make more. Any cheaper and you won't see any more games because Tom will have to get another job to pay for food.

[Andiar]

i understand that the price is set because it has little effect on the people who choose to pay for most games. but that still dosent change the production cost of the game. or in this case, both the cost and time of producing this game. in no way should both eb1 and eb2 combined should take 2 years to develop. it should take 3 months - tops for each with 4-6 hours of work per day 4-5 days a week. real games are games for gamers created by gamers because it is the art they invision and want to express. not to make a buck. they should be happy people like their work. that alone is worth more than all the money on the plannet. there is an entire gauntlet of open source software that is 1000000% free (both commercially and privately) that took much more time and is much more complex than eb1, where is their money? the same open source software the devs probably heavily relied on developing eb1. they are missing the entire point of principals and foundation computing and the internet is based off of. no offence, but that article you posted is just a lame explanation of why people want to be greedy. eb1 is fun and great, but it is a real simple/primitive game. mount and blade is 30$ off their official website and 15$ almost everywhere else, and that is the best indie game of all time. hell, one of the top 10 best games of all time. it is also a much more complex game.

im sorry but the price of eb1 is way out of place.

10$

[Andiar]

i dont mean this in any hostile way, but "basilisk" engages in many hypocritical acts.

they seem to be huge fans of linux and haters of microsoft, but what they are doing is not the GNU-GPL way, but more of the microsoft way of things.

its easy to believe in a philosophy but when it comes down to the bottom line many turn out to not practice what they preach.

they seem to go out of their way to trash on commercial software and/or microsoft but yet they charge 20-30$ for something thats worth nowhere near that. its quite possible that they are trash talking commercial software/microsoft as a marketing technique and that they dont actually believe in any of the stuff they say. but are only trying to capture that niche audience of microsoft haters out there to make a higher profit.

again, im not making any accusations or anything like that. im just speculating. but i could be very right.

[Randomizer]

If you believe that a game like this takes that short a time to create, then try it yourself. Coding software and creating graphics even using public domain software to get past some of the work is very time consuming. Very, very few people can code a 1000 or more lines without any mistakes and tracking them down takes time. A game like this requires several thousand lines of code to control everything and do it in a reasonable amount of time.

You really don't know what you are talking about in how long it takes to produce a game like this. Just sit down and see how long it takes to retype all the dialog for a zone where you talk to a dozen characters. At least interesting dialog. Then think about the time to come up with the ideas for that dialog. Plus write a script to control each non player character's actions and consider what players could do to them.

Programmers that release free software do it for the ego boost of seeing their work out there for others to use. Even then most of them would like to get some money for what they have done.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

i understand that the price is set because it has little effect on the people who choose to pay for most games. but that still dosent change the production cost of the game. or in this case, both the cost and time of producing this game. in no way should both eb1 and eb2 combined should take 2 years to develop. it should take 3 months - tops for each with 4-6 hours of work per day 4-5 days a week. real games are games for gamers created by gamers because it is the art they invision and want to express. not to make a buck. they should be happy people like their work. that alone is worth more than all the money on the plannet. there is an entire gauntlet of open source software that is 1000000% free (both commercially and privately) that took much more time and is much more complex than eb1, where is their money? the same open source software the devs probably heavily relied on developing eb1. they are missing the entire point of principals and foundation computing and the internet is based off of. no offence, but that article you posted is just a lame explanation of why people want to be greedy. eb1 is fun and great, but it is a real simple/primitive game. mount and blade is 30$ off their official website and 15$ almost everywhere else, and that is the best indie game of all time. hell, one of the top 10 best games of all time. it is also a much more complex game.

im sorry but the price of eb1 is way out of place.

10$

Thomas and the people he's hired to help him develop these games can't take all the love and fan mail in the world to the grocery store or the bank that holds the mortgage or the power company that keeps the lights and servers running and say, "See, keep me fed, housed, and powered." It doesn't work that way. If you think $20 is too much to pay, don't buy the game. You're free to go buy the games of other people. That's how capitalism works.

And, while EB1 may look primitive, it's a pretty rich game for the niche Thomas was aiming at. Mount and Blade may be the best ever game for you, but it's boring as all hell to me. That, again, is part of capitalism, and until some great overlord comes in and gives us all houses and food and power and medical care and everything else, and we get to do only exactly what we want when we want, it's how life actually works. If you think Sketchers are overpriced because you can buy sneakers at K-Mart for $12, buy at K-Mart. Perceived value is all there is in any exchange.

[Andiar]

Thomas and the people he's hired to help him develop these games can't take all the love and fan mail in the world to the grocery store or the bank that holds the mortgage or the power company that keeps the lights and servers running and say, "See, keep me fed, housed, and powered." It doesn't work that way. If you think $20 is too much to pay, don't buy the game. You're free to go buy the games of other people. That's how capitalism works.

no they cant, but thats what a J-O-B is for. and sure, thats how capitalism works, but your sorta missing the entire point of whole linux/gpl thing.

And, while EB1 may look primitive, it's a pretty rich game for the niche Thomas was aiming at. Mount and Blade may be the best ever game for you, but it's boring as all hell to me. That, again, is part of capitalism, and until some great overlord comes in and gives us all houses and food and power and medical care and everything else, and we get to do only exactly what we want when we want, it's how life actually works. If you think Sketchers are overpriced because you can buy sneakers at K-Mart for $12, buy at K-Mart. Perceived value is all there is in any exchange.

so you're arguing that beauty in the eye of the beholder. althoe this is true for some cases, it is not in many. there are universal patterns the vast majority of humans are attracted too. for example, some people think morbidly obese chicks are hot. but MANY do not. it would be very appropriate to say that obese chicks are not at all hot as an opinion that reflects the majority and not on a personal level. which gives valid credit to the subject matter. so in short, mount and blade does actually kick alot of but and actually is the best indie game out there. keep in mind that im ignoring the number of copies of m&b sold, which is another indicator of it actually being a great game. but also keep in mind im only using m&b as an example of what eb1 should be priced at. i still think eb1 is great.

the rest of that quote talks about "how life works" and capitalism. again, ya thats how it works but there are many out there that choose not to follow that exact path. again, for example, the thousands of gigs of free open source software lying about. all work people did that was much more extensive and complex than eb1. all for free. im only using this as a reference of what eb1 should be priced at. nobody is saying its wrong to charge money for their product. its just wrong to charge a high inflated apple/microsoft price when your an advocate of linux/free software/open source/gpl. which the devs clearly are.

If you believe that a game like this takes that short a time to create, then try it yourself. Coding software and creating graphics even using public domain software to get past some of the work is very time consuming. Very, very few people can code a 1000 or more lines without any mistakes and tracking them down takes time. A game like this requires several thousand lines of code to control everything and do it in a reasonable amount of time.

You really don't know what you are talking about in how long it takes to produce a game like this. Just sit down and see how long it takes to retype all the dialog for a zone where you talk to a dozen characters. At least interesting dialog. Then think about the time to come up with the ideas for that dialog. Plus write a script to control each non player character's actions and consider what players could do to them.

Programmers that release free software do it for the ego boost of seeing their work out there for others to use. Even then most of them would like to get some money for what they have done.

actually i do know what im talking about. althoe im not a coder (a person who specializes in coding. more specifically, oop's) myself, almost all of my friends are. i am more of a person who specializes in the inner workings of client/server topologies. once the framework of the game is complete, the bulk of it is really not a challenge in comparison to other projects i have directly had involvement with. and programmers who release free software do it for various reasons. mainly because they dont want the entire online universe to turn into a corporate controlled cash vacuum. which is the CORE principal and reason the gnu-gpl exists and why people do it. these programmers who "would like to get some money" for their work mainly rely on donations. they dont expect or enforce anything. they are still noble in their cause.

bottom line is this:

althoe fun, eb1 is a simple game thats priced to high for what it is. this is even more appalling given the fact the devs openly claim to be anti commercial.

10$

[Andiar]

its just wrong to charge a high inflated apple/microsoft price when your an advocate of linux/free software/open source/gpl. which the devs clearly are.

edit: which the devs CLAIM to be.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Thomas and the people he's hired to help him develop these games can't take all the love and fan mail in the world to the grocery store or the bank that holds the mortgage or the power company that keeps the lights and servers running and say, "See, keep me fed, housed, and powered." It doesn't work that way. If you think $20 is too much to pay, don't buy the game. You're free to go buy the games of other people. That's how capitalism works.

no they cant, but thats what a J-O-B is for. and sure, thats how capitalism works, but your sorta missing the entire point of whole linux/gpl thing.

Basilisk Games IS Thomas' full time job, in addition to the other people he pays for their work. This is not a hobby game. Sales of Book I pay his bills, pay his license fees and employees, and pay for the development of Book II.

And, my point still holds. YOU don't feel that this game was worth $20-$30, so you didn't buy it. (Which either means that you've only played the demo, somebody bought you a copy of the game as a gift, or you're playing a pirated copy. I won't hazard a guess as to which.) That's capitalism, and Book I has done well enough that there will be a Book II and Thomas hasn't had to find a different job.

Thomas is a long way from the draconian model of major software vendors like Microsoft. He not only allows but helps users who have bought the game for one platform, to download and install it on either of the other available OS platforms. He doesn't tell people that if you want to install it on more than one machine or platform, then you need to buy another license. To me, that's a perfectly reasonable position, and I enjoyed the demo sufficiently that I bought the game. I've enjoyed the game enough that I've played it numerous times, I frequent these forums, and I'm impatiently looking forward to Book II.

All that said, I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the game enough that you plan to buy Book II as well.

[Elveronion]

man, $20 for a game is the best value you can find. it's cheaper than a pizza or dinner out, cheaper than a movie or a new dvd, cheaper than a concert or going to a ball game....and it lasts much longer than any of those other things.

also, are you saying you want book 2 to go open source?? NO WAY!! i've played several games that are open source and they suck imo. it is the "to many cooks spoil the soup" or what ever that saying is. anyways, don't listen to this guy thomas, just keep basilsk games going so we can keep playing old-skool rpgs!! i bought several copies of book 1 and i will buy several of book 2 as well because I know jerks like this guy won't buy there own copy.

[Andiar]

man, $20 for a game is the best value you can find. it's cheaper than a pizza or dinner out, cheaper than a movie or a new dvd, cheaper than a concert or going to a ball game....and it lasts much longer than any of those other things.

also, are you saying you want book 2 to go open source?? NO WAY!! i've played several games that are open source and they suck imo. it is the "to many cooks spoil the soup" or what ever that saying is. anyways, don't listen to this guy thomas, just keep basilsk games going so we can keep playing old-skool rpgs!! i bought several copies of book 1 and i will buy several of book 2 as well because I know jerks like this guy won't buy there own copy.

man, $0 for an entire operating system bundled with hundreds of apps is the best value you can find. its cheaper than a pizza or dinner out, cheaper than a movie or a new dvd, cheaper than a concert or going to a ball game....and it lasts much longer than any of those other things.

also, nobody is saying i want book 1 or 2 to go open source.

Basilisk Games IS Thomas' full time job, in addition to the other people he pays for their work. This is not a hobby game. Sales of Book I pay his bills, pay his license fees and employees, and pay for the development of Book II.

And, my point still holds. YOU don't feel that this game was worth $20-$30, so you didn't buy it. (Which either means that you've only played the demo, somebody bought you a copy of the game as a gift, or you're playing a pirated copy. I won't hazard a guess as to which.) That's capitalism, and Book I has done well enough that there will be a Book II and Thomas hasn't had to find a different job.

Thomas is a long way from the draconian model of major software vendors like Microsoft. He not only allows but helps users who have bought the game for one platform, to download and install it on either of the other available OS platforms. He doesn't tell people that if you want to install it on more than one machine or platform, then you need to buy another license. To me, that's a perfectly reasonable position, and I enjoyed the demo sufficiently that I bought the game. I've enjoyed the game enough that I've played it numerous times, I frequent these forums, and I'm impatiently looking forward to Book II.

All that said, I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the game enough that you plan to buy Book II as well.

lol your "point" never existed to be stood in the first place. you keep droning on about capitalism and i keep telling you that it is completely irrelevant. see: GPL. god im arguing with children. look, nobody is saying you cant sell software. its just hilarious seeing people charge 20-30$ for a VERY primitive game. and ontop of that, they claim to be anti commercial!!! LOL! im sorry but no matter how you try and spin it, 20$ is nowhere near worth the price of this game.

10$

[Randomizer]

I've gone the open source route and you get what you pay for, that means quality and support will vary. Sure there's some great stuff out there, but if it doesn't work because of an incompatibility problem ....

For people that have the technical ability to sort through the source code and hope the developer bothered to document it, then you might find the problem. Linux has lots of support and applications, but for most users it might as well be Microsoft, because when it doesn't work than getting a solution is a matter of luck. That's the reason it's mostly used by people that can already program, because they can fix it when things don't work the way they think it should. The real money comes from companies that provide the support for the rest of the users.

You may think Eschalon is primitive and for a first effort it does have flaws, but it's competively priced for the type of niche product it is. You are also getting the support and updates to make it work on your computer. Take a look at all the user complaints from people that have bought cheaper copies through other distribution sources that can't be bothered to update the sold version or help them out.

This is Tom's full time job along with helping his customers, dealing with vendors that aren't helping the customers after they've sold the game, and running this website. Paying customers are his only source of income. You don't see many people donating money for free software that they like.

[Andiar]

I've gone the open source route and you get what you pay for, that means quality and support will vary. Sure there's some great stuff out there, but if it doesn't work because of an incompatibility problem ....

For people that have the technical ability to sort through the source code and hope the developer bothered to document it, then you might find the problem. Linux has lots of support and applications, but for most users it might as well be Microsoft, because when it doesn't work than getting a solution is a matter of luck. That's the reason it's mostly used by people that can already program, because they can fix it when things don't work the way they think it should. The real money comes from companies that provide the support for the rest of the users.

You may think Eschalon is primitive and for a first effort it does have flaws, but it's competively priced for the type of niche product it is. You are also getting the support and updates to make it work on your computer. Take a look at all the user complaints from people that have bought cheaper copies through other distribution sources that can't be bothered to update the sold version or help them out.

This is Tom's full time job along with helping his customers, dealing with vendors that aren't helping the customers after they've sold the game, and running this website. Paying customers are his only source of income. You don't see many people donating money for free software that they like.

wow, it must be "say everything twice saturdays" down over here.

are you going to contribute anything genuine? im going to reply to this, but unless somebody posts something genuine instead of a rehash of an already defeated logic or point, im going to stop replying.

linux has its flaws, but it is still a much more complex and totally free project. which is why i bring up linux, its to negate any claims of "worth" you people think eb1 has. also, linux is used by more than just people who know how to program. i mean the rest of your post is just babble about how and why you think eschalon book is properly priced. it is all stuff that has been said and defeated already. providing support over a forum is not some huge task the devs deserve praise over. neither is making a patch. this is all stuff they do to generate profit. its not a favor for you. and finally, nobody is saying eb1 should be free. i know this is his "full time job". im not saying he shouldnt charge people for it. he just overcharges for it.

10$

[Andiar]

please understand that in my criticism there is help.

i want the developers to understand the reaction many people have when they look at the price of this game.

even as a devoted indie game supporter with disposable cash i took one look at the price and LOL'd and went to piratebay.

keep in mind that i chose not to pay for it even thoe i make a conscious effort to support indie games.

it is quite possible that many, many, many others feel the exact same way i do. and a reduction in price to the amount of 10$ would actually boost sales greatly.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

please understand that in my criticism there is help.

i want the developers to understand the reaction many people have when they look at the price of this game.

even as a devoted indie game supporter with disposable cash i took one look at the price and LOL'd and went to piratebay.

keep in mind that i chose not to pay for it even thoe i make a conscious effort to support indie games.

it is quite possible that many, many, many others feel the exact same way i do. and a reduction in price to the amount of 10$ would actually boost sales greatly.

The end of this month, your employer says that your work this month wasn't really worth your previously agreed salary, so they're just not going to pay you. That's fair, right? I mean, you think it's fine to not only steal this product, but to proudly say so on the creator's own site.

YOUR perceived value for this game is $10. Your proper options then are to buy it for the set price anyway, to not buy it, or to inform the seller that you're only willing to pay $10 and can he please sell it for that price.

And, yes, lowering the price to $10 might, in fact, bring in more sales. Would it bring in more than double the number of sales? Remember that certain costs in the distribution of any product are fixed, so there is a certain minimum that must be maintained. Maybe by lowering the price, he'd see a 300% spike in sales, and you'd be proven correct. But, if lowering the price only brought in 70% more sales, Thomas would be losing money on the change, possibly catastrophically so. That's the dilemma that he as a producer works through in pricing his game. You make your subjective decision to buy it or not buy it. What you did -- stealing his product because you thought he was charging too much -- is exactly like if I walked into WalMart and said I thought the Coke was only worth 50 cents, not more than a dollar, so I'll just take it instead.

The point of GPL is that the CREATOR of the product has the power to decide the licensing options of his creation. If you actually respected that, then you would respect that people who opt not to price their product at your perceived value have that right, and are not then saying that you should steal their product if you disagree, be they Microsoft or Basilisk Games.