Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

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Unclever title
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Unclever title »

quasimodo wrote:I liked this design choice. A unique reward for an evil act.
Indeed, though it is a shame that we can't take advantage of her alleged "Bee allergy." :twisted:

At least not to the extent that would make it seem as though Lilith were telling the truth about it. The way I pretend to see it, if Lilith lied to me to be her exterminator for a job that she actually could have done easily by herself (especially considering that awesome sword was not too far a walk away, not to mention a fantastic dagger) then killing her is slightly less of a moral issue.

But then again I could pretty much rationalize anything if I wanted to do so. :mrgreen:
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Evnissyen »

Unclever title wrote:But then again I could pretty much rationalize anything if I wanted to do so. :mrgreen:
Absolutely. That's what we humans are best at.
Certainty: a character-driven, literary, turn-based mini-CRPG in which Vasek, legendary "Wandering Philosopher", seeks certainties in a cryptically insular, organic, critically layered city.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by DewiMorgan »

I really really liked this choice in the game. I made sure to save, then went and killed her for the "shadey" guy - just to find out what she had. I discovered it was the most awesome sword in the game, and I'm a swordsman. I was so tempted. I checked on the forums: there is apparently no negative repercussion for killing her anywhere in the game.

Then I reloaded, turned down the job, and continued on my way, without the sword.

In my opinion, moral decisions are absolutely the best thing in any game. I've written about them at length in the past, and I don't feel that a game can properly call itself a RPG without them.

Very well done to BG for this quest: I hope there are more like it in the future books :)
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Evnissyen »

Yeah, Dewi... I like moral choices, too. I hope there're more of them in Book3.

Also -- and I've probably said this before, 'cause I've shared a lot of opinions, ahem --one thing that bothers me in games is when you make a moral choice but there're no significant consequences for that choice, if any consequences at all. I mean... if you make a choice you should have to live with it, for better or worse.

I know this can bug people who just want to get through a game and don't want to be bothered to make tricky decisions... but let's face it: Eschalon isn't your typical game.

It's also always bothered me how, in CRPG's, you can often 1. steal someone's stuff right in front of them (I think Eschalon is better with that sort of thing) and 2. go into a merchant's backroom, take their stuff, then come back and sell it to them. I always wonder why the merchant doesn't recognize his/her own stuff that they felt was so important they should be keeping it locked away. (Common items like potions excluded, of course, but that prized sword that came down from their grandfather? I don't think so.)
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by DewiMorgan »

The theft issue is a big one. I tend to play thief/sniper characters, and that means I do tend to carry away whatever isn't nailed down. The only game I've seen which even tried to tackle the "selling the shopkeeper his own stuff" thing was Morrowind. And Oblivion had a simplified version where you just couldn't sell stolen stuff to anyone other than a fence, which I also liked.

I've yet to find a way of discouraging theft that has satisfied me. This is because I'm hard to satisfy, because I want what I have in real life: a moral imperative not to steal.

Worst system is "you steal stuff and people right next to it don't even notice".

Next worst: "you steal stuff and everyone in the area knows about it telepathically, and attacks you".

The bottom of the reasonable ones is: "you steal stuff, and might get attacked if caught."

With a little more depth, that can become almost good: "you might get caught, which could result in the guards being called, or the observer attacking you, or fleeing, or just having a reaction penalty or bonus, depending who they are and what you took". It's not morality, but at least it's a measure of depth.

For morality itself, all I've seen has been morality-scoring systems Ultima 6's virtues system, and Fallout's karma. You get a score change when you do an immoral thing. But that's not satisfying, emotionally... it's just a number, a "you clicked on a red thing and your karma score went down, better donate a bit of metal to the church to fix that". Can't relate to it on an emotional level.

What I'd love to see is, as you point out, consequences. Moral repercussions. If you steal the Helm of Tharg from under the nose of the watchman, you should meet that watchman in the stocks later on. Stuff like that would need case-by-case, item-by-item scripting, though, so really can only be realistically done for quest items.

But if you rob someone blind, they should be affected by their poverty the next time you see them. That would need to be done programmatically, rather than on a case by case basis.

So, say you robbed everything that was not nailed down from a house. All the silverware, food, candlesticks, etc.

When you return there a day later, any of several things could happen. The obvious ones are: it's all respawned; or it's all still gone. Most games are a little smarter, and respawn only the cosmetic items, after a certain amount of time.

But me, I'd want to see that my theft has affected them, and to do that, I'd respawn according to a table. Everything stolen would have a chance of being respawned, but as one or more steps down-table in the value scale, depending on how much was stolen from the area, how many times. A silver platter could be replaced by a fine china one, or a tin dish, depending. The severity of the change would be determined by a "family debt"

At very severe levels, the furnishings (the nailed down stuff you couldn't steal) could also be replaced, to represent stuff getting sold; security in the building would be stepped up (lock qualities would rise, unlocked doors would become locked, guard patrols would become more common, guard and NPC alertness and chance to spot theft would rise), and the NPC clothing could change. At this level, conversation tree items would need to open up to discuss their worry and poverty, but these could be generic, since everyone worried about destitution through repeated burglaries would have much the same things to say.

For best moral results, there should be children in the household, and the quality of the food in the pantry should drop even if the food has not been stolen.

Upside: a moral dimension to theft. Downside: still shallow :(
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Evnissyen »

Yeah, I remember one game that kept misidentifying my stuff as "stolen". It would keep saying something like "This merchant doesn't buy stolen merchandise", and I'd be thinking, "What the hell, I didn't steal that!"

As for the morality meter... yeah. I'm the side of letting the player decide for his/herself. The consequences dictate whether or not the decision was wise.

But... on the other hand if you also want Reputation... then there has to be some sort of meter keeping track of what sort of things you've done.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by staylost »

Lilth was my favorite NPC by far in the game. I built my character as a massive damage sword user (focused most stats on getting the highest damage I could with one hit, I think 204 was my high point, though I hit at that level several times) but I never killed her even to look at what she had. In a survival game like this I need to build an emotional connection with the game world somehow. Lilth and my brother served to bridge that gap.

So I pseudo RPed Lilth as a love interest in my mind and have never killed her.
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Re: Having a good reason to kill L. (major spoilers)

Post by Stercus »

Admittedly I did have a moral dilemma about killing her, but in the end I had to know what was in that chest. After I killed her, I set her house as my first portal spell anchor and used it as my home to store things and rest. :twisted:
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