Do you want loot/pick lock/disable trap to be changed ?

[Mongolian]

Let me be clear here. I love love love saving at any point and yes I hate real time strategy games for the most part. But, what I hate is 2 specific things:

1) being able to save game when enemies are near aka rerolling dice until you don't take any damage.
2) being able to resave when you open a treasure chest or about to kill someone to make sure you get a bag of treasure in case you don't get something that is perfect.
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And simple as saying well, just don't reroll dice or don't save over again, but this is how the game works. That's the same like in chess, if queens want to they can jump over pieces, but this is an optional rule. If it's possable, people wil use it. It just spoils the gaming experience as this power is abused. Lastly, I really enjoy a game that allows all players to play with the same set of rules and not to have to 'make up my own rules'.

[Unclever title]

If a system exists there will be those to abuse it. I've rerolled for treasure and to avoid diseases that were extremely inconvenient at the time (I was already carrying a lot and I had no where to store my loot and the items were fairly valuable). Suffice to say I still thoroughly enjoyed the game. It didn't ruin the fun for me. I thoroughly enjoyed the story and the unique strategy opportunities you don't find in too many games these days.

I agree that some mechanics are a bit of an issue, but the rerolling is not that big of an issue to me.

As for everyone playing with the same set of rules... why? Are we competing? I was under the impression these were single player games.

It is true though that Book II will have some statistics scoring opportunities, but that can be easily remedied. Perhaps the game can keep track of rerolls instead of preventing them altogether and can include this in the statistics as a negative score, so, for those whom it really matters, people can see that though this person has excellent equipment and perhaps completed the game at a surprisingly low level it's obvious that they rerolled extensively to do so.

[realmzmaster]

But it only ruins the gaming experience for those who do it. And for some people it adds to their gaming experience.

For example I played SpellForce: The order of the Dawn. People who played the game found a way to delay the triggering of massive attacks by the enemy, by waiting to build their headquarters. They would send their avatar and his/her companions out on seek and destroy sorties. They would take out the smaller close by enemy camps, leaving the stronger camps for later. They would then build their headquarters and preapare for a massive assault on the larger main camps. Also people used the Towers to contruct virtual walls, building towers close together. They would then position workers behind the towers to keep repairing them as they were attacked. Thereby keeping the enemy at bay, while force were built up.

The designers of Spellforce (Phenomic)did not like the gaming of their system. So in the expansions and Spellforce 2 they eliminated these abilities. They thereby forced people to play it as they envisioned it rather than reward ingenuity.

As far as Eschalon: Book I , I thought we are all playing by the same rules. Some people may disagree with some of those rules, but the rule set is the same.

As far as playing with optional rules, that has always been done in D & D called house rules. As long as everyone in the house agrees to the rules there is no problem. Same thing with Magic the Gathering or Monopoly! Of course in a tournament environment only tournament rules apply and everyone plays by those rules.

If the changes made are optional, I have no problem with them. But, if changes are made that diminish other people's gaming experience is that fair?

[Mongolian]

As far as Eschalon: Book I , I thought we are all playing by the same rules. Some people may disagree with some of those rules, but the rule set is the same.

As far as playing with optional rules, that has always been done in D & D called house rules. As long as everyone in the house agrees to the rules there is no problem. Same thing with Magic the Gathering or Monopoly! Of course in a tournament environment only tournament rules apply and everyone plays by those rules.

Lol. Life doesn't work that way. Games have a very specific set of rules and players are required to play them and yes aguement those rules later perhaps. A Queen in chess can not move through other squares nor can a character in Eschalon be able to attack a neutral character without expecting them to attacking back, walk on water, or hit 100% of the time on an attack. But wait, technically you can hit 100% because yes, you "choose" to waste endless hours of gameplay to make sure you did everything perfect.

Should people be able to reroll dice, yes of course, but the current system is setup to allow people to really abuse the system. Number two, rerolling should be used in moderation and the current system is clearly not. Number three, if you want a game like this to be really successful, you need to bring back suspense and drama. If you let people reroll every single move, there is no longer anything to fear about when playing. I love being a control freak when playing the game, but still this is too much!

[realmzmaster]

No, life doe not work that way! But this is not life, it is a game, a fantasy game to be exact. How many people in life do you know that can cast magic, accurately shoot a bow, wear heavy or light armor and wield a broadsword?

The basic rules are set by the designer. Many people play Monopoly with the rule that certain monies (jail fines, taxes etc) go under the free parking space and whoever lands there collects the money. But it is not in the original rule set! Not envisioned by the designer. Most people do not play with the rule that all properties that are landed on and not bought by the person landing on them must go to auction. This rule is in the original rule set. These are some of the many house rules for Monopoly. Are they abusing the system? No, not if every agrees to the rule changes.

Why can they do this? Because it is a game! The reroll and save/reload is conducted within the parameter of the rule set design by the designer. We all play by the same rule set, some take advantage of the fact that they can beat or abuse the system! How does that affect how you play? It doesn't. What you want is the designer to take away the temptation to beat the system. Why?

Characters do not always attack when attacked. This again is up to the designer. Some CRPG's have morale and intelligence checks. If the character is in a fight and misses their morale check, they flee. If the person uses their intelligence to discern that they do not have a snowball's chance in hell of beating the character, they flee or beg for mercy and forgiveness! Why would you attack a neutral character? Because you chose to play an evil character? A good character would not attack a neutral party because it would be an evil act.
But you said it yourself:

But wait, technically you can hit 100% because yes, you "choose" to waste endless hours of gameplay to make sure you did everything perfect.

The magic word here is choose! A person has to make a choice to spend endless hours rerolling and reloading. But how does that affect how you play? If they are happy with their endless rerolling and reloading why should you care? They paid their money for the game and are deriving their enjoyment! If they want to reroll or reload, so be it. I personally do not play that way. I do not have the time nor patience. I play it my way within the rule set. You paid your money, the system is open enough for you to play it your way within the boundaries of the rule set. Everyone is then happy.

Optional rules can be set in play to make the game harder or easier. Icewind Dale I & II had the option to set the game difficulty. Many people did not play it that way, many people did.
But they had a choice. You want the designer to remove the choice.

[realmzmaster]

Number three, if you want a game like this to be really successful, you need to bring back suspense and drama. If you let people reroll every single move, there is no longer anything to fear about when playing. I love being a control freak when playing the game, but still this is too much!

Actually, some of the most successful CRPGs have allowed people to save/reload and reroll to their hearts content. Suspense drama and fear are generated by the story telling and plot development, not whether the next chest is going to blow me to kingdom come. For me that does not generate fear but annoyance, especially if opening the chest is the only way I can advance the plot!

Also if you have ever played the infamous or famous Gold Box games by SSI, you would know that some of the combats took anywhere from 30 minutes to 1 hour to complete.

The Bard's Tale is another series along with the early Might & Magics, where it was extremely combat and trap heavy. In the original Bard's Tale combat occurred every few steps. The only save point was the inn. The complaints were so bad EA had to issue a patch to lessen the occurrance of combat and make the traps less lethal, because getting through the game became tedious and a chore not fun. You could not advance the plot because you were to busy fighting all the time.

People play CRPGs for many different reasons. Some play them because they like the exploration. Some like to watch their characters grow and role play a certain class. Some like to micromanage their character's attributes. Others for plot development and the story telling.

Some like to play to see what pops out of chest if they keep re-rolling. They like to make walkthroughs and post weapons, potion and spell lists. Everybody has their reason for playing.
Why should I spoil their fun?

[Mongolian]

Why is having players not able to save when combat is present such a terrable thing? same for treasure and lockpick. If you let me resave every situation, there is no longer any challenge in playing. I'm just suggesting a better idea to be used.

So is everyone happy that when you kill something you will 100% guarantee you get a treasure with resaving? Are you happy you will get to resave endlessly until you get what you want in that treasure? are you happy you can reroll a battle so you never take any damage? are you happy you will never have to take damage when encountering a trap?!

Whatever happened to trying to simulate an experience similiar to the story we are reading/playing?

[realmzmaster]

Believe or not some people are quite happy! There are people who re-roll until they create the uber character. If you read the forums you will find quite a few people who do. There are also people who share your opinion. Which is why this poll is being taken. BW is gauging our opinions.

[Unclever title]

I also think you might be exaggerating the problem a little, not everyone rerolls every step of the game, while I won't say that NO one does, or that people reroll for every hit or to make sure they get treasure every time. To do this every time would require the patience of a tree (you know cause they're really patient I guess.)

Now I'm sure that there are those who do reroll so often but in all likelihood the numbers here are so few that it's really meaningless in reference to the entire group. Again this problem does not necessarily have to affect you specifically unless you choose for it to be an issue, because you never have to reroll. Heck you don't even ever have to save the game even once.

If you really want to simulate the experience of the story you are playing a part of the answer is simple. Don't save. Not even once. If you die start a new game. That will really assign value to the life of your character. Not to mention it will be a challenge, rerolls of any kind are then impossible hence no temptation for them. The Iron Man Challenge is pretty much the same, though slightly more forgiving.

Changing the basic rules will do nothing compared to changing how one plays the game. The rules merely offer restrictions which will still have ways that one can get around them.

[krisklef]

And simple as saying well, just don't reroll dice or don't save over again, but this is how the game works. That's the same like in chess, if queens want to they can jump over pieces, but this is an optional rule. If it's possable, people wil use it.

Mongolian, I'll jump in here and point out that, as has already been mentioned above, there is a big difference between chess and a SP CRPG, one that doesn't have a "leader board" or online scoring comparisons, or anything like that. And were Eschalon to have those things, it still would not make it a competitive game for me, and I have never felt a compulsion to abuse a game system that I felt shouldn't be abused, nor have I held the game designer responsible for the temptation.

If the queen were allowed to jump pieces in chess, it would not be an optional rule, but an agreed-upon variation that both players would have to approve. If Eschalon were a competitive game, I certainly use any exploit I could to ensure a high score.

Fortunately, it is not.

[Mongolian]

If Eschalon were a competitive game, I certainly use any exploit I could to ensure a high score.

Fortunately it is not, but I would be almost certain many people play this game competitively to themselves. It's been a mantra throughout humankind for mand to be competitive. That being said, as I've been pointing out in the entire game is a request to have a bit of moderation for a new revision.

Just don't allow character to save during battle. You can save before and after. I guess I am asking too much...

[Kreador Freeaxe]

I think BW has said that the plan is to implement optional difficulty settings which include limiting save/reload if you so choose. That seems, to me, the closest to a perfect answer. Not all of us think the save/reload exploit is a problem. I've used it sometimes, I've chosen not to use it more often. I just like to save when I happen to find a really good drop, otherwise I inevitably get killed soon after and have to reload from some point prior to that nice find.

To me, it's the same as people who argue that pick locks is useless because you can just pummel the chest or door open. Standing there beating on a chest or door bores me silly, just like constantly saving and reloading does.

When you're playing solitaire, the only person keeping you from rifling through the deck for that one card you really need is you. My play of the game is unaffected by other people's ability or inability to restrain themselves.

[realmzmaster]

Mongolian said

Just don't allow character to save during battle. You can save before and after. I guess I am asking too much...

I have no problem not saving during battle as long as the designers have the common sense to limit the size and duration of the battle. I have played SP CRPG where the battle takes an inordinate amount of time without the ability to save.

In my opinion any battle that takes more than 15 minutes to finish needs the ability to save during the battle.

[Mongolian]

In my opinion any battle that takes more than 15 minutes to finish needs the ability to save during the battle.

I can maybe only think of 1 case in the entire game of Eschalon 1 where a battle might have lasted 10 minutes and even at that, there are ways to avoid it, run away or just save/restart/save.

[realmzmaster]

Notice what I said before that quote:

I have no problem not saving during battle as long as the designers have the common sense to limit the size and duration of the battle.

I do not know how long the battles will be in Book II. If the battles are kept to the length of Book I that is fine.

Also running away is not always an option. Your character can get away with it in Book I. Running is an option if you are faster than your opponent or have a step or two distance between you and your opponent. Book II may allow for free critical hit attacks by your opponents as you turn to run. You may also see faster opponents in Book II that makes running away extremely difficult. Book II is suppose to have a larger variety of opponents.

I sure BW and his crew will come up with some exciting possibilities.