Spiderweb Games

[focus]

Speaking of Spiderweb games has anyone been able to get onto their forums recently? I have been trying for over a week and get MySQL errors everytime I try and goto into a forum or post.

[Jude]

Are you using the right URL?
http://spiderwebsoftware.com/

Jude

[serenetempest]

I have very fond memories of Avernum 2 & 3, but found 4 to be disappointing and 5 hasn't captivated my interest enough to get me to play through it. I'm not sure if this is because 2 & 3 were just better or if its because I'm older now. Avernum 4 and 5 had some really interesting points to them, but I found that the power/advancement balance was so tight that I had a very hard time getting through everything without power-gaming. I like being able to experiment with different skills, as well as being able to skip areas that are not important to the plot and I don't find terribly interesting. Probably the biggest turn-off for me in the two most recent Avernum games was being much more interested in their plots than slogging through every monster-infested cave in the game, but knowing that if I didn't I'd never gather enough experience to get through the game. I like the exploration aspect of games, but not feeling like I have to find every last enemy in the world.

It took me a little while to really warm up to the Geneforge series, but the first (in retrospect) and fourth games I found to be very well done. The plots were original and interesting, you had to make choices that required some thought and had significant repercussions on the game's plot and ending, and there was a lot of strategy in combat.

As far as Eschalon, it certainly has different strengths and weaknesses, but overall I'd put it right up there with the best of the SW games. The characters were overall better developed, I like the PC generation/development system better, and the enemies seemed more believable than endless streams of grotesque monsters.

[Evnissyen]

Really? It seems to me SW's characters are notably better developed than Eschalon's, at least so far in the Eschalon series. I hope that changes with Book II.

Anyhow... I guess just one of the big differences between Eschalon and the SW games is that the SW games force you more to build yourself up and to explore areas and to immerse yourself in the story and involve yourself with the characters... you can't just rush through it. There are powerful enemies that you need to defeat, and important people you need to satisfy or deal with or humor, in order to progress from one area to the next. In a story-based game: that sort of thing might be vital.

You don't need to power-game with Avernum or Geneforge, although lots of people choose to. Lots of others, like myself, play for the story. You can play just for the story but that means actually dealing with the people you meet along the way. Not just getting from point a to point z as quickly as possible.

Like a lot of Geneforge fans, I was happiest with the most recent installment. As for the original, I never finished it. I almost got there, but... the options were so limited in comparison with the G3 & G4 that I got tired of it eventually... plus the graphics were not as well developed.

Focus:
The forums were down for about a week from the beginning of the month... after that they had some severe problems for a few days although you were able to read and post... now they seem to be mostly fixed. Try it again.

[5thElement]

I've never been able to make it more than an hour or so through a spiderweb game. I bought one of them, not sure which one.... I'm not sure what it is, but maybe this helps: Eschalon feels like a retro/old-style game that was recently made, spiderweb's games just feel like old games. Why is that?

[Mongolian]

Almost all of the games I love to play do not have high-def graphics. Nintendo and Intellivision systems didn't matter about graphics cause they could substitute for creative games and concepts. Zelda seems like one of the key games to mind here. Think of how great it was to do a dungeon crawl and learn a new tricks. Then, how nice it was to try to beat it on hard mode. I believe Eschalon is much more in the vein in terms of style and strategy. SW games, although story heavy, seem to lack strategy on top of graphics. Again, bad graphics can be good thing, but not when it clearly feels like poor design.

[Evnissyen]

5th Element:
It's the graphics! What else? Basilisk did some excellent work with the visuals in Eschalon (including animation)... Spiderweb's games still look primitive in comparison, although based on the screenshots from the new and upcoming (and final) episode of Geneforge: Jeff's graphics are much improved. Unfortunately they are still not as good as Eschalon's graphics. (I hope, anyhow, that there's more and better animation in the game, as I've been clamoring for on their forums.)

The SW games, more so lately and especially with the Geneforge series, seem to require notably more dedication to building up your character and dealing with other people's problems. This makes the game more interesting. I'm not so much interested in puzzles (although a good one is occasionally nice) as I am in story and character. In Eschalon this needs to be worked on a little... also, in Eschalon so far (haven't finished Book I just yet)... raising my skills seems almost redundant since, even though I'd like to train in nice spells and kill things more quickly, in the end I can really just hack my way through my enemies without any spells at all, and the spells are so weak and the system that governs how I use spells is so cumbersome that it makes spellcasting utterly unenjoyable. I've been concentrating on improving my spellcasting stats for several levels now, and ignoring my fighting stats, and yet still I'm able to slaughter all the acolytes in Shadowmirk, as well as Erudor himself, by just hacking at them a little with my Claymore. Strategy really seems to consist of little more than making sure no more than one creature at a time is hitting you. In the SW games at least there are powerful area spells that work best when all your enemies are clustered together, which is best accomplished by using the physically strongest in your party (if you're not playing solo) as a magnet. In Eschalon if you get swarmed you usually die pretty quickly.

Also, there's simply less stuff to do in Eschalon, and especially less stuff of real consequence to do than there is in Geneforge and Avernum.

[5thElement]

Evnissyen:

You must be right. Your quick outline of the differences of these two games was spot on, imo. Spiderweb's games seem better in some regards, as you point out, but I find them less enjoyable. And the graphics really feel old. Maybe I'll give the latest a try while I wait for book 2. Book 1 was the first old-school RPG I have played since, well, old-school days. I was surprised how into it I got. It felt light and fun and interesting, but you are correct in saying that it is really simplistic, way too simplistic. Way too easy too. I was walking through as fast as possible in the second half, especially once I figured out that the game seriously seems to favor bows. With high bow skills and by simply running and shooting I could take out anything. Couple that with a very lax camping policy and there is not much need to do anything but boost up combat skills. And gold, I had like 20k gold at the end and nothing worth buying.

All the same though, I enjoyed it much more than anything I've tried from spiderweb. Yea, animation is a must for some level of enjoyment for me. The stickman sprites of the avernum series is going back too far for me. 2d graphics have always been superior to my tastes, but they got much better than we are seeing in either of these games. Book 1 is a nice 1st release and hopefully they will build upon it and not try too much at once and keep the games coming. By book 3 or so we should see a fine-tuned game. I've seen game companies like this place too much weight on what everyone wants and end up over-complicating the game.

[realmzmaster]

Actually the graphics in SW games do not just feel old they are old. Jeff Volgel places more emphasis on story plot and character development. Unfortunately sometimes the plot gets too intricate. You have to have a scorecard to remeber the players. The graphics have improved somewhat, but not near the level of Eschalon: Book I.

Another difference is that the SW games are party based. You can quickly get overwhelmed in Eschalon: Book I by encounters if you are not careful. You have party members to back you up in SW games.

In Eschalon when you die you die alone!

Eschalon is the first attempt by Basilisk games. So some mistakes in design choices may have been made. For example the second half of the game is easier than the first half. Plot development could have been better. Like being able to bring Father Michael to justice or a quest to heal the sick man with the rot. Some choices were good , like the scarcity of gold at the beginning. I know by the end gamers had accounts of 20k +. But the beginning was spot on.

There is a whole thread for giving suggestions on what we want to see in Book II. Some of it will make it in, a lot will not. But all in all, I do not dislike SW games, I just like Eschalon much better. The game for me is more fun than the SW games.

[MegaHassan]

I dl'd Avernum 5 and played it for 30 mins before buying it =D

I've liked it so far, more than I liked Avernum 4. But I'm stuck at this part where I've got the permit but I dunno where to go now :-/ I've learnt how to use those teleporting crystals, but I dunno what to do

I haven't ever played any of the Geneforge games though. But from what I've heard, its better than Avernum

[serenetempest]

Once you have the permit, you want to head north and slightly east of New Harston. You'll know you've found the right path when you meet someone who urgently offers to help you get further.

[Evnissyen]

5th Element: You're probably referring to one of the original Avernum trilogy... those are the games whose characters most resemble "stick figures". Try Avernum 5, or Geneforge 4. A5 is an easier play, G4 I think is maybe a little more interesting. But both have good stories and interesting characters. Probably A5 is the best to start with.

Realmzmaster:
You're right that the graphics are in fact old, literally, since Jeff's been using much of the same graphics for quite a while. So many of the sprites even in the two most recent Avernums are imports from the Geneforge series, whose graphics really haven't changed much, except for some new creatures in each game (in each Geneforge game, that is).

You're only mistaken in saying that the games are all party-based. Besides the fact that you can play any of the Avernum games as a singleton... in the Geneforge series you're on your own... of course, Geneforge does allow you to make pets, temporary or permanent... and the later the games the better the pets are. (Plus, the later Geneforge games give you more options. Forging very useful magical items, for one thing.)

Oh, and I'm not sure why you feel the story is too complicated and that there're too many characters... I've always felt that the games aren't complicated enough for me. I've always wanted even more strongly developed characters and more sensitive interactive elements. Too many games out there are just too simplistic. I like to be immersed in a story. The Geneforge series, over Avernum, feels more special to me in that when playing these games I feel like I'm a participant in a rather long morality play. I want that morality play to be more vast and more complicated.

...A5 is also good with providing you with interesting choices.

Hassanumer:
Yeah, like Serene says. By the way: You do know about the little world-map button at the far right of the screen, right?

[Mongolian]

Alright..so I have never played any of the spiderweb games and I'm not sure which one to buy if at all any. I'm a huge fan of Eye of the Beholder, but I decided I don't want to play a game with 4 characters. Bottomline, is it takes too much work to enjoy a game like that for me. Would love to play a game style like that, where characters auto-fight for me.

That being said, it looks like Averum is a bad choice. Geneforge? which one should i buy? any other comments before I purchase?

[MegaHassan]

The Geneforge series, over Avernum, feels more special to me in that when playing these games I feel like I'm a participant in a rather long morality play. I want that morality play to be more vast and more complicated.

EDIT: What you said sums up the main reason why I like Geneforge 4 so far

I DL'd Geneforge's demo and played it for one hour before deciding to buy it (My dad's gonna be mad at me for draining his credit card these last few days ) I've gotten to the part where I interogate that Shaper chick in the cell.

Yeah, like Serene says. By the way: You do know about the little world-map button at the far right of the screen, right?

Yup

[Evnissyen]

Hassanumer:
The most recent Spiderweb games, I think, are good value for the money. The adventures are nice and long, and interesting. In regard to your father and his CC, here's what you do: Explain to him that it's not just any common mindless computer game, it's an intelligent game with an interesting storyline and interesting characters and humanistic characteristics and moral psychology, and so on and so forth. If he's literary or loves film, this'll work on him better. And if you yourself happen to be into programming and plan on going into game design: Even better: Tell him you're familiarizing yourself with the possibilities of intelligent, well-written games.

Mongolian:
Download the demos. General consensus is that the best games so far are the latest two (A5 & G4), but make your own decision. The demos are pretty generous, which is good: I think it's good business practice to make the demos long enough (with no time limit!) to pull the player in and hook them. Eschalon is good, that way, as well.

Anyhow... I'm not a huge fan of games that force you into party scenarios, either. (I have, though, just downloaded the Eye of the Beholder trilogy (were there more than 3?), so I'll take a look at them.) The Geneforge series is better for people who prefer to work alone, since your only companions, if you want them, will be self-formed pets. (Although helpful, they can also occasionally be a slight pain to take care of, and in later games they drain your XP gains a little. But they're fun to play around with -- did I mention that?) There's also extra stuff like item-crafting, which is fun, and helpful charms.

There's a recurring discussion on the SW boards on this subject. Most of the posters, with some good reasoning, will tell you to start with the earliest. I don't agree, partly because I think the earlier games are comparatively primitive and are more likely to put people off and that those people might not then bother with upcoming games. Also, I prefer the idea of sticking with the present before you delve into the past (which is how I introduced myself to their games). If you want to check out the most recent discussion, I don't have the thread URL offhand, of course, but I seem to recall accusing a lot of the people there of being sentimentalists. (Not viciously, of course... I like the people there.) So... I suppose if you do a search of evnissyen+sentimentalists then you should be able to find the thread. The opinions there might help you to make up your mind. But I, personally, prefer the Geneforge series, and despite what anyone on the SW boards might opine: I happen to think G3 was an excellent game and great fun... though G4 was better.

Avernum will let you work alone, too (just delete the extra characters when you're setting up your roster)... but it makes the game more difficult. Playing as a singleton or as a party of 2 really necessitates choosing Divinely Touched as one of your traits... it's a very helpful trait. I haven't played through Avernum 5 a second time, yet, but I started up a new game with two divinely-touched nephilim (although I usually work with 3 characters, I like the duo concept, especially if they're "superhero' material, which makes the story more believable... and the opening sequence (which is a battle sequence) worked out quite well, so... if/when I play through A5 again I'll use those two characters.

The positive to having fewer characters, of course, is that you gain level more quickly... if the XP gain percentages are not outweighed by the XP drain that your character traits bring.

AI direction is not an option... but in Geneforge you only have one character to worry about (unless, of course, you decide to make pets, or, in G3's case, you choose one or both of two traveling companions... you don't actually need those companions).

Of course, you can always just download the demos and see which one(s) you like best. Like I said in an earlier post: I'm more partial to the Geneforge series for many reasons, although I think the Avernum series has proven the bigger seller by a significant margin.

Oh, and... Avernum's rather more fantasy-based, if that's what you're into. Geneforge tends to promote forum discussions on genetics.