Do you want loot/pick lock/disable trap to be changed ?

[Mongolian]

Alright, so I put my money where my mouth is, and after a couple hours of playing and never saving, I died by a trap/fighting. No saving and saving every single move both seem to be the wrong direction as a solution of this game. Hopefully some common ground solution will come of in the middle...

[Kaja Rainbow]

Judging from the interview I just read (it's posted elsewhere), they already have some notions about how to handle those issues. I'm mostly happy with what I'm seeing. However, I don't see anyone directly addressing my main points in my earlier post.

I suppose I can accept diminishing xp returns for lock-picking. In some ways it makes sense (locks easy for you don't teach you as much as a challenging lock), but it means I'll have to look more to fighting for that much-needed xp, and just treat lock-picking/trap-disarming as a way to get to loot and not a xp source at all, since any characters I play will most likely have those skills jacked up.

As for the loot issue: again, my main peeve isn't being able to reload, but rather the ability to get laughably pathetic stuff from a chest deadly enough to kill you. And I refuse to accept the "goblins are so stupid they don't know quality from crap" excuse, since I presume any leaders earning their leadership by strength would at least be able to pick out good weapons or they'd get killed and replaced by challengers with a better knowledge of effective weapon use, for example. And so on. If you really want to argue the realism issue.

But my main argument is qualify of play. It's severely discouraging to get practically nothing when you've gone out of your way to be clever and overcome formidable challenges and find particularly obscure chests. Thus the request for a little more context-appropriate weighing in the loot randomization.

My save-and-reloading was all because of what I perceived as gameplay issues. Fix those issues, and I'd probably still save very frequently but reload only when I got especially messed up.

[realmzmaster]

And I refuse to accept the "goblins are so stupid they don't know quality from crap" excuse, since I presume any leaders earning their leadership by strength would at least be able to pick out good weapons or they'd get killed and replaced by challengers with a better knowledge of effective weapon use, for example. And so on. If you really want to argue the realism issue.

Well if it realism you want, then a empty chest or a chest with crappy loot would be realistic especially if someone is trying to hide their true valuables. In fact several empty chests all wired to explode would be a very good determent. It would be the high art of deception. A chest is heavily guarded to decieve the character. While the true valuable is in plain sight. The character finds nothing in the chest and goes away thinking there is nothing of value in the area.

As far as goblin or monster intelligence all that is require to be a leader is that you are either smarter, stronger or have more cunning than the monsters you lead. You stay the leader until someone more cunning, stronger or smarter comes along. Also a weapon that a goblin can use to keep his group in check need not be as powerful as one you would want for your character or have no re-sale value.

You are not looking for realism. You want the reward to be worth the effort you put in to get it. If you are looking for realism what some monster might consider treasure would be junk to your character. One monster's treasure is another monster's junk.

A goblin may like quartz, which is basically worthless to your character, but valuable to the goblin. Every once in a while it picks up a diamond. Very valuable to your character, but to the goblin another quartz.

[Scryler]

The loot is extremely disappointing. Most of the time...nothing. Or loot of such minor value that you might as well not have bothered. Bearing in mind the value/usefulness of the loot most often found (if any), it practically requires you to reroll...it's like the game assumes you will. So I do.

I'd rather have loot of some value found most of the time...and really really good loot after tough fights or in well hidden chests. Then you wouldn't feel so frustrated.

[Mongolian]

One of my favorite solutions i've seen happen with a game similiar is that every screen all treasure was random (no rerolling possable), no saving on the screen or can only save at certain parts of the screen, until screen done, or say no battles/chests around. But if this was the case, then yes, the current treasure chests need to be remade to allow better grabs due to no rerolling possable.

And yes, It really really feels like this game was designed to have people reroll dice endlessly. And despite I partially enjoyed rerolling to get good loot, it also took away some of the fun-factor in wasting my time. It's like watching a movie and keep rewinding certain parts over and over again. If you want a movie to be the most enjoyable, you need to submerge yourself with it and not stop/resave/reroll.

[Scryler]

And yes, It really really feels like this game was designed to have people reroll dice endlessly. And despite I partially enjoyed rerolling to get good loot, it also took away some of the fun-factor in wasting my time. It's like watching a movie and keep rewinding certain parts over and over again. If you want a movie to be the most enjoyable, you need to submerge yourself with it and not stop/resave/reroll.

Exactly.

[realmzmaster]

And yes, It really really feels like this game was designed to have people reroll dice endlessly. And despite I partially enjoyed rerolling to get good loot, it also took away some of the fun-factor in wasting my time. It's like watching a movie and keep rewinding certain parts over and over again. If you want a movie to be the most enjoyable, you need to submerge yourself with it and not stop/resave/reroll.

Once again I say you choose to reroll save reoll. You choose to waste your time. The game itself is not designed for re-rolling. It is gives you the option to abuse the system, but it does not make you do it! Just like you choose to keep rewinding a movie. It is all about choice and you want to remove my ability to choose how I play the game.

You want everyone to play the game the way you envision. What about the way I want to play or not play?

As far as bad drops that happens, so do good drops. I have played the game through several times with different characters, I have no problems with the drops or chest because I realize that some chest and drops may contain nothing or junk.

Treasure Hunters know that not every chest they dive for at the bottom of ocean may contain anything of value. They dive because of the chance that they may hit the big one.

I find no fun in knowing that every chest I open will have something of good or better value. This would most definitely kill the fun factor for me. I like the feeling of anticipation that I could be elated or disappointed over what I find.

It makes the good finds all the more memorable. And if people want to re-roll let them, if that is how they choose to play. Also you are assuming that you are the first one to the chest, maybe a thief beat you to the good stuff. This happen in Pool of Radiance : Ruins of Myth Drannor. You had a big fight with a horde of orcs only to find out the best treasure had been taken by a thief who left the initial N. You find more chests whose contents have been removed by N. Eventually you get to meet N. This made for an excellent twist.

[Mongolian]

For those of you that are the competitive type and want to understand how a more fun way to open chest and be rewarded accordingly, try this game. It's a free game you can play in browser:

http://www.smokymonkeys.com/triglav/

I dont appreciate having to 'hunt' for treasure, but I prefer that then taking away the glory in re-rolling chests.

[Captain0Ryan]

I found that I would re-roll whenever the contents of a chest were of much lesser value then the potions used to kill the monsters protecting said chest. I would recommend having some items predetermined to appear in certain chests. Also maybe having less treasure chests with more loot, and make it so more monsters drop equipment (that's appropriate to the monster slain. I don't want to see a dead wolf dropping a longsword and 4 healing potions). I find it unlikely that people will quick load after clearing a room of goblins, and if they do well they have to kill the goblins again.

Now when it comes to traps I don't have much against loading a previous save because most of the traps would seriously cripple you with disease or just flat out kill you.

[arisian]

While most of this has been said, the poll options don't really allow for this much specificity. I agree with those who have said the problem is not the save/load system, but the loot randomization system. The variance in the value of the loot from an average chest seems to be two to three orders of magnitude; that's just plain silly. It's no fun to fight through a tough "boss" encounter and find a chest that has 3 throwing rocks in it, especially when you know that if you re-roll that chest, there's a chance of getting well over a thousand gold worth of loot. I'm honestly less concerned over whether chests can or can't be re-rolled, and more concerned over the way that loot is balanced over the course of the game. I think that people would be a lot less likely to re-roll loot over and over if they knew that they would always get stuff with approximately the same total value; this would still allow for randomization, but eliminate the disappointment of finding 3gp worth of stuff from a chest that could contain 1500gp worth on a lucky roll.

[Scryler]

I don't think it is so much the reloading/choice of how to play issue, as that the randomness of the loot feels unbalanced. I don't demand good loot in every barrel/chest/drop, but I do expect more than nothing, nothing, nothing, a rock, nothing, empty flask, etc. Maybe I am not a good player, but I need enough loot to buy equipment and potions, so I can progress in the game, rather than getting constantly killed off. Nothing, rocks and empty flasks won't do that.

I agree with others that saving at any point should be allowed.

Edit: I also agree that xp from lock-picking/disabling traps could be improved/rewarded. Why bother increasing your thief skills if you can simply reload? Increased xp would make reloading less of an option and offer an incentive.

[Unclever title]

Edit: I also agree that xp from lock-picking/disabling traps could be improved/rewarded. Why bother increasing your thief skills if you can simply reload? Increased xp would make reloading less of an option and offer an incentive.

Or rather than increased xp it would be better if the xp for locks didn't decrease with raised skill levels. It's not like monsters give you less xp when you kill them at higher levels but that you just need more of it. Since xp is universal in this game, then there shouldn't be (added) diminishing returns to your xp.

Just cause you're better at it doesn't make the task take any less skill, it just means that your practiced at it and can do it correctly more frequently so then it feels easier to you but in reality it is not.

[Mongolian]

The variance in the value of the loot from an average chest seems to be two to three orders of magnitude

Beautifully spoken. This would definately solve the problem of endless rerolling on chests if there was a less dramatic system. But it also troubles me to think that if there was less deviation of rerolling on chests, would that mean that you are definately going to get some killer equipment when I kill the big monster guarding the chest. I definatley don't want to it a guarantee to get something amazing for the few super chests. Variation as the game has now is nice, but yes, still needs to be tweeked better.

[ChrisHallett]

Rather than changing the system completely, why not change it a little to dissuade 'cheating'?

Lockpicks are less likely to break, perhaps more expensive to buy, you could have to get different lockpicks for different types of locks, magical locks could require magical lockpicks, the difficulty of picking the lock could be reflected in the value of the loot you recieve (no-one keeps bars of gold and golf-ball sized diamonds in suitcases...)

Also, I believe the difficulty of picking the lock should be reflected in how long it takes to pick it - a particularly difficult lock could take hours to pick in real life, why not a couple of dozen turns in-game, during which you can be discovered and attacked by enemies, resulting in a failure to successfully pick the lock...

[Trogdor]

Okay, let me as a long-time RPG player (going back to Gold Box SSI on the C64) chime in.

If users want to cheat, LET THEM! If they want to play hardcore with a limited number of saves, LET THEM. If I enjoy playing a game where I save and reload a ton, and it's a single player game, what does it matter to others? I maximized my loot by doing that with Book I, and I think I would have never made it through the game if the unlimited saving and reloading wasn't there. There's nothing I hate more than "consolized" games where you only get checkpoint saves.

If you want to reward people for playing without "cheating", go ahead, but unless you have something like Battle.net where all the player info is stored online and you have serious security (and there's enough of a user base to make that actually viable), some of you are talking about forcing others to play the game the way YOU want it and not let them decide for themselves what's best. One size rarely if ever fits everyone properly, so give us a bunch of "sizes" and let us choose which one fits.

/my two cents.