Feedback on Book II so far

[Michi]

Hi,

Firstly, well done. The game feels extremely polished, and the mechanics are good, and it totally has that old school feel to it. An awesome achievement for an indie developer. really, really, I wish I had your drive.

I really have only one complaint,but frankly its a huge one (for me) since at level 8, I think I am going to stop playing.

The game mechanics have too many loopholes. Too many exploits, and so its just too easy.

I have all difficulties set except the thing that doesn't let you save when low on health - not because it's too hard, but because sometimes I need to turn the game off, and if I am mid-fight or something and I haven't saved in a bit, I lose all my progress.

As to why it's too easy ... well, in the first 6 levels or so, I just pumped 5 points into mercantile every level. Once that happened, I was able to basically empty out every store of gold and items. Then I had enough money to buy all the weapon and magic skills to level 8.

I bought items to pump up my int/wis and element/divine, and pretty much every spell.

Kaboom. I am unstoppable. Oh, I imagine something level 15 could kill me quickly, but there is no challenge.... by the time I get to the tough guys I will be even tougher.

I realize I could restart and start limiting myself to not pumping up mercantile, or limit myself to no magic or something, but ... well, i want the game to challenge me, not for me to tie my arm behind my back.

Too many loopholes in the mechanics.

Some suggestions, off the top of my head:
1. Mercantile should never let you buy / low sell high. The shopkeepers need to remember how much you sold them an item for, and they shouldn't sell it back to you for less. And vice versa. Basically, have mercantile let me sell a looted item for more based on skill, and get good discounts on newly bought items, but not the whole exploit thing.

2. Trainers need to be tapered down in a big way. 8 levels, given the way skills work, is WAY overpowered. And 3,600 gold given the easy way to make money, is just too cheap.

3. Stats are just not that meaningful. Perception is way too unbalancing for casters, given that int/wis don't have to be invested that much, and I can use items to temp boost Int/Wis to learn spells ... if I use an item to learn a spell, when not wearing that item, at the very least, that spell shouldn't work. Speed is borderline meaningless, as in concentration. Str is important tho for carrying capacity and wield better weapons while casting. I think you could probably shrink down to Str, End, Int/Wis merge, Dex/Spd merge, Pereption and drop Conc. and then re-balance so each stat has much more significance.

There are probably more ideas, but basically, the game should provide a steady challenge, with occasionally being able to be clever and find 'small exploits' that let me leap a bit ahead in power than the would otherwise be allowed... but right now, you can just leapfrog ahead.

[Slarty]

This is all feedback that was given on book 1. :-/

[Michi]

Oh

So, is it that the author doesn't agree, or that these changes would have been too invasive for Book II or what?

[yodabomb]

If you play without trying to break the game, its perfectly fine. =]

However, I agree that stats really need simplification. There are too many, its too confusing, and it almost seems like they don't really matter. Strength is obvious due to encumberance and Int/Wis for learning spells, but the rest have not so obvious implications

[Slarty]

I don't think he disagrees with the factual observations made about the game, but he disagrees that they are a bad thing. I know he has written about how he wants players to be able to "have complete control" over their character, and that allowing exploits is somehow part of that. And however much I may agree with you and wish things were that way -- well, that's his prerogative, seeing as he's the one who's finishing and publishing games. *shrug*

[Arkos]

Yeah, at the interview with Rampant Coyote, BW said as much:

"Old-school, to me, means that we give the player ultimate control over the development of their character. With a complex array of attributes, stats, and skills you have the freedom to experiment with your character’s design- and that means you have the potential to make a jack-of-all-trades dud…or a god-like titan that can walk through the game with little effort. There is freedom in an old-school game; not just in the character design but also in the world design- a sense that you really can go anywhere from the very start."

(Emphasis mine.)

[CrazyBernie]

In other words, Eschalon is a game that doesn't hold your hand, and doesn't constantly babysit you. It's old school.

[mkreku]

I tried to build a rogue and pumped all my attribute points into strength, dexterity and speed. I have no idea what speed does, but so far it seems pretty useless. Strength is good.. for carrying stuff.. I guess..

Dexterity is supposed to give me both better ToHit and Armour Rating, but.. For some reason, everything I fight hits harder and much more often than me. I've been forced to take up Divination to get a healing spell and Cat's Eye. Not really a true rogue, that. I was hoping to find rogue equipment that would balance those spells out (ring of regeneration? mask of nightvision?), but I haven't found anything of the like.

Anyhow, I really like the game so far (I'm actually having a blast), but there are still improvements to be made. Perhaps for Book 3?

[Slarty]

In other words, Eschalon is a game that doesn't hold your hand, and doesn't constantly babysit you. It's old school.

I have to say that having to contort my character to maximize my skills, and having ability scores that are mostly meaningless, are -not- things that I associate with actual old school RPGs. Neither do I associate the difficulty level of Eschalon, which is fairly low once you understand the mechanics.

Eschalon is definitely an old school style RPG, don't get me wrong! But don't conflate lack of balance and intentionally allowing exploits with not holding your hand.

[Rune_74]

In other words, Eschalon is a game that doesn't hold your hand, and doesn't constantly babysit you. It's old school.

I have to say that having to contort my character to maximize my skills, and having ability scores that are mostly meaningless, are -not- things that I associate with actual old school RPGs. Neither do I associate the difficulty level of Eschalon, which is fairly low once you understand the mechanics.

Eschalon is definitely an old school style RPG, don't get me wrong! But don't conflate lack of balance and intentionally allowing exploits with not holding your hand.

All the ability scores have a use, just because you do not understand them all does not make them useless.

[CrazyBernie]

I have to say that having to contort my character to maximize my skills, and having ability scores that are mostly meaningless, are -not- things that I associate with actual old school RPGs.

So you've never played an old RPG and spent time trying to find the best combination of stats and skills to make an uber character/party? I seem to remember doing that a lot, myself. That's part of the old school charm that Eschalon appeals to, IMHO. There were always some stats/skills that ended up being ultimately useless... but the point was you had the choice on whether to use them or not.

But don't conflate lack of balance and intentionally allowing exploits with not holding your hand.

No, I'm pretty sure that falls under the "not babysitting" aspect. If you can't restrain yourself from taking advantage of exploits - regardless of whether they were intentionally placed or just not fixed by choice/engine limitations - I fail to see how that instantly equates to bad design on the part of the developer.

If BW made the game intentionally more difficult, then people would complain about it being too difficult. If he perfectly balanced every stat/skill/ability/enemy/ham sandwich, then people would complain about not being able to make an uber character. In the end, you can't please everyone, so he designed a game around what he thought would be entertaining to play. Some people played it and loved it, some people tried it and hated it, and some people fell in between. Some people think the game is easy, others are finding it difficult. It is what it is.

Do I agree with every design decision? Of course not... and I've made plenty of suggestions on things to add to the game to make it more interesting (in my opinion, of course). As a matter of fact, feel free to blame me for some of the design changes that weren't made as a result of shotgunning BW with "cool ideas." If he had taken the time and addressed every suggestion/concern/complaint, the game would still be in development and likely would never have seen the light of day. Instead he made decisions to add certain things, modify others, and leave others alone.

What I personally won't do, is tell him that his design/modifications were just plain wrong, solely because I think they are.

[Slarty]

In other words, Eschalon is a game that doesn't hold your hand, and doesn't constantly babysit you. It's old school.

I have to say that having to contort my character to maximize my skills, and having ability scores that are mostly meaningless, are -not- things that I associate with actual old school RPGs. Neither do I associate the difficulty level of Eschalon, which is fairly low once you understand the mechanics.

Eschalon is definitely an old school style RPG, don't get me wrong! But don't conflate lack of balance and intentionally allowing exploits with not holding your hand.

All the ability scores have a use, just because you do not understand them all does not make them useless.

Yes, all the ability scores do something. But they do not all do something meaningful, which is what I was commenting on. "Mostly meaningless" was what I said. Most of the scores have effects that are so small compared to skill effects, and so miniscule compared to buff effects, that investment in them is effectively meaningless. If you'd care to explain how the attributes are NOT "mostly meaningless" go right ahead.

[Slarty]

I have to say that having to contort my character to maximize my skills, and having ability scores that are mostly meaningless, are -not- things that I associate with actual old school RPGs.

So you've never played an old RPG and spent time trying to find the best combination of stats and skills to make an uber character/party? I seem to remember doing that a lot, myself. That's part of the old school charm that Eschalon appeals to, IMHO. There were always some stats/skills that ended up being ultimately useless... but the point was you had the choice on whether to use them or not.

Again, maximizing my PC's skills is part and parcel of old school. Contorting my character to maximize his skills is NOT. Having one or two meaningless ability scores (hi, Charisma) might have been standard, but having eight ability scores of which only one or two are likely to have a serious impact on gameplay, that's not old school.

If you can't restrain yourself from taking advantage of exploits - regardless of whether they were intentionally placed or just not fixed by choice/engine limitations - I fail to see how that instantly equates to bad design on the part of the developer.

Yes, because as you yourself have stated, you have a different agenda when playing these games than people interested in optimizing their characters. If there was something that made exploration a hassle, I could just as easily say "if you can't restrain yourself from sticking to the main plot, I fail to see how that equates to bad design." Things that annoy players UNNECESSARILY count as bad design in my book, even if they only annoy a portion of players. Now, there are some design features that some people like and others dislike -- food and water meters for example -- that's a different story. But a design feature that some people find repugnant, and others are indifferent to -- that's not a good feature.

[CrazyBernie]

Yeah, I'm just gonna throw some soap on this oil and water argument and bow out.

[liz]

I love this game.
Never played rpg's before eschalon I - then looked in vain for more stuff out there just like it - and am so far enjoying book 2 even more.
I'm playing a jack of all trades - and am fine with the difficulty (if it's too tough I camp and farm for more stuff - love those outlander drops)
just my 2 cents