Feats and Weapon Skills Discussion

[Farwalker]

Worth mentioning that I discovered Thrown Weapons to be pretty much silent, which may be a worthwhile advantage in some cases when we (hopefully) see noise effects fixed up in the game!

[KillingMoon]

Re: Thrown Weapons

I had a run where I invested in Thrown Weapons and found them hugely underpowered.
Every weapon feat gives a guaranteed hit, by the way. Probably Thrown Weapons, an already underpowered skill, is the only one where you can still be missing while performing your special feat! Yes, one of your projectiles will always hit, but a few others can easily go missing. This makes an already problematic skill even worse!
It's buggy as well. Usually more projectiles leave your hands than hits are recorded with the special feat, but I've also seen it the other way around: two hits recorded, while only one projectile had left my hand.

The prices for Thrown Weapens are staggering. Once, arriving in Durnore, looking for stuff to throw, I saw these items (I'll put them in a SPOILER):

Steel Javelin
damage 9
weight 2.6 lb
value 36 (cost 72)

Dwarven Steel Harpoon
damage 15
weight 9 lb
value 100 (cost 200)

Tungsten Harpoon
damage 15
weight 9.6 lb
value 120 (cost 240)

At that moment in game this damage wasn't so special, but those weights and prices!!! This makes the skill Thrown Weapons unplayable. It's potentially a very nice skill, but not like this.

I do have a few suggestions, probably not all good, but fodder for thought:

• Boomerangs. Maybe not always returning, but perhaps 4 out of 5.
• Stun chance. I don't know yet how 'Stunning' is implemented in the game, but to give any thrown weapen a 1 in 3 chance to stun its victim would seem realistic, and make this skill more attractive.
• Concentration to help with Thrown Weapons, besides Strength and Dexterity.
• Simple stones to be found at many places in nature. Probably not graphically represented by a barrel, but by a big stone.
• Base damage of thrown weapons up, probably doubled. Price and weight of of the more advanced thrown weapons to go down.

[Antigrav]

I'm still not clear on why better weapons have to weigh more, reaching absurd hefts. You really could not use a sword at all, in real life, that weighed more than five or six pounds, and a real two-hander would weigh four pounds or so anyway. Better materials should equal lighter weights in general when beginning weapons are made of bronze and advanced weapons are made of mithril.

I've heard "game balance" offered as a reason for the current setup, but how do overweight weapons and shields help? Is it just the restriction on how much you're holding in your hands during spell casting that is the concern? Remove Ogre Strength, then, and presto—a pure caster will have to limit himself to daggers and staves.

[Oshkell]

I agree, Antigrav. Especially in terms of mithril, it seems a little strange that weapons made of nicer materials are super heavy. Besides, isn't mithril supposed to be lighter than steel? In terms of adamantine, however... well, that stuff is supposed to be heavy, in my understanding. I've not yet gotten so far into the game that I've seen an adamantine weapon, though.

On terms of weapon feats, what about a disarming option for the sword feat? Obviously not every creature is going to be able to be truly disarmed (it's more feasible for a club-wielding brigand to be rendered harmless than it is, say, a wolf or spider) so maybe it could be more like a "trip" effect, or cause the enemy to become unbalanced as per the Dodge skill.

As for thrown weapons... there needs to be a Creme Pie of Returning +5, which also charms the target on a successful hit. Lol. XD

[CrazyBernie]

On weapon/armor weights... it's mostly a balance thing. BW didn't want mages running around in full plate armor swinging the strongest weapons around like paper... without investing heavily into strength. As a compromise... there's the unique weapons that generally weigh much less thant their normal damage dealing counterparts. I made similar comments during the testing phase, but conceded that it would be difficult to come up with a magical solution that offered the perfect balance. "It is what it is."

I do have some ideas for a compromise... but they'll likely be Book III recommendations.

[Farwalker]

For thrown weapons I can see some relationship between weight and higher damage... but that shouldn't be the whole (or only) story. I'm not sure you could even pick up extra ammo at the last shop that isn't really heavy (with one exception - demon oil).

I do think feats are the most promising way overall to tweak these weapon skills in the short term (book 2). As CrazieBernie commented, trying to change the way weapons and shields are balanced against magic in general sounds like too big a change for book 2. Throwing in particular may need a bit more help besides the feat. Something to defray the encumbrance problems of carrying a lot of ammo around for example.

I'm still testing some of these skills first-hand to get a better feel for them, aiming toward an updated suggestions list for feats. Any further ideas for that?

[Farwalker]

[*]Simple stones to be found at many places in nature. Probably not graphically represented by a barrel, but by a big stone.

You'd think someone with even the most basic foraging skills would be able to find some rocks hey?

Maybe we need variations on "endless bag of missiles" for simple missiles and "bags of missile holding" for more high-end missiles. The latter could hold up to 99 missiles of exactly the same kind without adding weight.

You still have the trade-off versus magic because of holding weight limits for casting, but this would be one way to deal with ammo encumbrance. (Reusable ammo might be better, but not necessarily easier to implement!)

[Farwalker]

Every weapon feat gives a guaranteed hit, by the way. Probably Thrown Weapons, an already underpowered skill, is the only one where you can still be missing while performing your special feat! Yes, one of your projectiles will always hit, but a few others can easily go missing. This makes an already problematic skill even worse!

You checked them all for auto-hit? That's helpful to know, I haven't gotten around to checking them all yet.

Incidentally, the auto-hit system can become a bit alarming if we assume NPCs/creatures might also be able to auto-hit... What happens if a perfect hit meets a perfect defense (sword feat is only example of that at the moment)?

Unstoppable force meets immovable wall.

[Farwalker]

Hi folks!

Ok, after some additional testing and thought, here is my revised list of suggestions for weapon skill revision.

Revised Feat Suggestions

Bow: Auto hit, 3x damage, can’t be used against an adjacent target.
Throw: Auto hit (at least one hits the selected target), volley effect, 50% chance for either a slow movement or fear effect (random one of the two not both) per hit, can’t be used against an adjacent target. Fear duration equals number of missiles in the volley for regular foes, number of missiles divided by 2 (round down) for “powerful” foes.

Unarmed: Auto hit, 4x damage, carry over damage (beyond what was needed to finish off your foe) to additional adjacent target(s).
Bludgeon: Auto hit, 2x damage, armor reduction (by 50%), 50% chance of stun for 2 rounds.
Cleave: Auto hit, multi-target (a full spin, all adjacent targets), 33% chance (each adjacent target) of stun for 1 round.
Sword: “Force Advance” - Auto hit, 2x damage, target is immediately pushed away to a different space not adjacent to player, and if no such space is available target is overwhelmed and takes 8x damage instead. No one else can move into vacated target space this round (ie, if target dies or is moved the space remains clear so that the player can choose to move into it next round).
Pierce: Auto hits, 2 attacks, ignore armor (specifically any armor damage reduction is ignored), bleed (twice the damage of the second attack applied over 20 rounds).
Shield: “Shield bash” - Auto hits, stuns (100% chance) target adjacent enemy for 2 rounds, 50% chance (each) to stun up to two other adjacent enemies (must be either side of target) for 1 round, should probably do some damage as well (some basic damage, plus benefit for shield skill, plus benefit for weight of shield).
Dodge: “Feint” – Defensive benefit (invulnerable to melee or ranged attack for this round) plus 50% bonus to hit and x2 damage for a melee attack immediately following the feint.

Revised Feat Cooldown:
I recommend requiring more skill investment to minimize the cooldown of feats across the board. Currently it's something like 100 - (skill level * 3), with a minimum level of 5. If it were adjusted to 100 - (skill level * 2) instead, our bow feat spamming friends can still do their thing, but it will require another 5 levels worth of skills for them to get there.
That also emphasizes the whole point of the feat - big benefit, spend it wisely you only get it once in a while.

Additional Suggestions for Thrown Weapons:
Thrown weapons should not cost a round to equip. (Reasoning: if start with it in hand, during round you throw and draw new weapon. It takes no more time to draw new weapon and throw. Therefore there should be no time penalty to moving thrown weapons around. If a thrown weapon launcher is ever added to the game, such as a sling, it should have a penalty to equip similar to a bow.)

Thrown weapons could be implemented with a “quiver” similar to arrows, and throwable any time the player has a free hand (either hand). With thrown weapons in this ammo bag gameplay is greatly simplified, because any left click at range can throw one of these weapons if a hand is free. (Throw from hand first if thrown weapon there, ammo bag second). You need to actually put the thrown weapon in hand if you want to use it for a point-blank attack.

Suggested further combat skill benefits (at skill level 15):
Bow: Missile conservation – chance for arrow reuse, the arrow stacks up in the backpack (if there is room) instead of being consumed. See chart below based on weight. (Optionally there could be a delay between the use and the recovery, perhaps they only show up once combat ends, or they show up but are shaded or labeled and can’t be used until combat ends. They should be dumpable though, in case the player needs the space to pick something up prior to combat end. If you leave the map while combat is going you lose them.)
Thrown: Missile conservation – chance for thrown missile reuse, the missile stacks up in the backpack (if there is room) instead of being consumed. Does not apply to thrown potions / demon oil. See chart below based on weight. (Optionally there could be a delay between the use and the recovery, perhaps they only show up once combat ends, or they show up but are shaded or labeled and can’t be used until combat ends. They should be dumpable though, in case the player needs the space to pick something up prior to combat end. If you leave the map while combat is gong you lose them.)
Unarmed: "Kick" - 10% chance of a bonus unarmed attack with any melee attack (with any weapon type) (ok, it's not necessarily a kick per se, maybe an elbow smash or whatever cool move you can imagine)
Bludgeon: “Smash” - 10% chance to stun for 2 rounds with any bludgeon attack or 1 round with any cleave attack
Cleave: “Cut” - 10% chance for x2 damage with any sword or cleave attack
and at this skill level x4 damage to objects with any cleave weapon
Sword: “Counter” - 5% chance of a "free" counter attack in response to any melee attack on the player while a sword is held
Pierce: “Bleed” - 10% chance of double attack plus bleed effect (twice the damage of the last attack applied over 20 rounds) with any pierce attack, or just the bleed effect for any cleave or sword attack;
and at this skill level all pierce attacks ignore armor (armor damage reduction does not apply)

Missile Conservation Probability versus Weight
Since the game has already built in a weight trend for missiles, presumably for balance reasons, a weight-based system seems feasible for missile conservation:

Weight Range --- Chance to Lose Missile (else can reuse it)
0.1 to 0.2 --- 2/3
0.3 to 0.5 --- 1/3
0.6 to 0.9 --- 1/4
1.0 to 1.9 --- 1/6
2.0 to 3.9 --- 1/8
4.0 to 7.9 --- 1/12
8.0+ --------- 1/20

Ok folks, let me know what you think! (Perhaps if we ask really really nicely, and if he actually likes some of these ideas, we might see BW tweak things a bit for us in Book 2? )

[Oshkell]

... What happens if a perfect hit meets a perfect defense (sword feat is only example of that at the moment)?

Why, your computer shuts down, of course.

I like your suggestions, btw. Very well thought-out.

[Kelakhai]

On weapon/armor weights... it's mostly a balance thing. BW didn't want mages running around in full plate armor swinging the strongest weapons around like paper... without investing heavily into strength.

When you got trained to wield weapons and armor, they weight less... Appropriate skill should divide weapon weight by a 1 + 0.1 per skill point between 1 and 10 and 0.2 per skill point between 11 and 20.

So that skill 10 divides worn weapon/armor weight by 2.
And skill 20 divides worn weapon/armor weight by 4.

Applies only to equipped stuff of course, for you never get really trained to wear your backpack... And for spellcasters wearing heavy armor, shields and big weapons, well, that may happen... But I fear that'll be a bit expensive in terms of skill points...

[Gorgon Rider]

That doesn't make sense. If an item weighs x, it doesn't suddenly begin to weigh less if you're trained in its use. The laws of physics don't bend due to training.

Better materials should weigh less.

Better training should make you more effective in their use, which is represented by the better to hit rating with weapons and better damage reduction value for armor (although I think it should give you better DR rather than a better percentage chance to take half damage).

[Farwalker]

I think I understand some of what Kelakhai is getting at. For armor anyway, effective encumbrance of a piece of armor is higher carried in the backpack than if it's worn properly. Providing a significant benefit along these lines that improves with skill level might be a good idea. (We could use some further incentive to invest in armor skills, the damage reduction benefit as it stands is pretty weak.)

I don't think I'd apply it to weapon weight though.

[CrazyBernie]

Better materials should weigh less.

But better in what way?? ^_^

http://swordforum.com/metallurgy/titanium.html

[Kelakhai]

That doesn't make sense. If an item weighs x, it doesn't suddenly begin to weigh less if you're trained in its use. The laws of physics don't bend due to training.

This is encumberance, this is not physics. Try puting a weight of 5kg in your backpack and try keeping it as long in your hand, arm straight.

Tell me what you think about physics this way

We could use some further incentive to invest in armor skills, the damage reduction benefit as it stands is pretty weak.

Weak ?

Almost inexistant I would say, absolutely not worth the price.
At least, armor skill should maybe have an effect... Well, at least one.
When you don't have enough skill to have 1% damage reduction it's laughable. Points just invested for nothing...

At least half of the skill should be put in armor rating, or it should improve the armor rating by a %. For example, +5% armor rating due to armor per skill point.

Heavy armor :
- 1 damage substraction per 5 skill points
- 1 damage substraction per 10 armor points (may only double the natural skill damage substraction).
- +5% armor rating due to armor per skill point.
- Traditionnal damage reduction (%) after damage substraction (-) but a bit higher level.

Light armor :
- +5% armor rating due to armor per skill point.
- Traditionnal damage reduction (%) after damage substraction (-) but a bit higher level.
- Not anything else due to the lightweight that is already an advantage in itself.

With that said, that would be a good investment to pay for armor.
Or else I will keep 1 in heavy armor or light armor... And invest in the dodge skill which doesn't halves but negates the damage done.

Well, these changes would alter the mobs stats to higher levels of course.
Or alter the basic armor rating values, making the game more difficult for people who wander around without armor and appropriate skill.

----

I appear to be out of the principal subject which is weapon feat discussion.

Thrown weapons :
a) Talked enough about weight, weapon should stay in the inventory if it misses (like "I tried but did not felt like I could hit...") and be in the target's inventory (at a % depending of its weight, which tells how solid it is) if it hits... In B3 maybe we'll have ground objects but until then we only got to choose wether it's in our inventory or the target's.
b) One advantages among others could be the fact of being able to keep and fire throwing objects with the shield hand... That could allow non-shield users to fight both close combat and low-medium range without switching to bow.
c) I don't know still, but range ToHit reduction should be higher with thrown weapons than bows but I guess it's already that way since it's perfect logic.
d) About the feat, every fired missile should attack a target even if it's not an auto hit, with a maximum of four missiles per target. So, if there is only one target, there will be four missiles attacks and four* attack/defense and so on with damage etc. Drawback is no auto-hit, advantage is a lot of simultaneous attacks and complete compatibility with all buffs effects.

* mistake corrected