Niggles about Book 2

[Snonskoid]

I don't like it nearly so much as I did book one. Here's a few things I hate about it.
1. By the time you've undressed to cast a spell, then cast it, then dressed again, the enemy is on top of you, and the spell's almost over. It's pointless. Are you supposed to map out all the enemies first, then reload the game a few turns back, and anticipate enemies you can't even see? It's not like real-time strategy!
2. A Taurax with a to- hit of 28% will- guaranteed- hit me at least twice as often as I hit it, with my to- hit of 28%. The stated odds seem totally wrong to me. Is it deliberate?
3. Having a limited spell- learning capacity is a nuisance. But failing to warn new players about it- so you waste your slots on rubbish spells- is a major defect that needs correcting. You put days of work into a character and then it ends up hampered by limited spell capacity. Very poor show.
4. I didn't like having to kill a human first task out one little bit. It could easily be a Goblin who fooled that priest somehow.
5. Those chests with the four- digit combination locks. None of the combinations from the wall of the mine work on any of them. WTF?
6. Some of the best creatures from Book One haven't re-appeared: the Floating Eye, the Goblin, the Acid Grub. Instead we're playing with puppies and killing innocent Dwarfs! Aargh!



I've struggled my first character- a Ranger- all the way to the threshold of the final level at Talushorn. I've played on twice from there- once going up, the other attacking some new Tauraxes on the plains outside, and it all just seems much too hard for my character to complete. I'm really fed up, I wish I hadn't bothered.

I can't end without saying some stuff I did like. The weather (although it could have been more varied- and more obviously affect playing stats e.g. hunger and thirst...) The scenery; I like the frozen lake and the chasm outside Edon. And I thought the trolls/ rain/ rocks/ marsh chapter was great. That was the best bit of it, for me.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Why would you undress to cast a spell? Only gloves, weapon, and shield have any effect on your casting ability, and if you have decent strength and concentration, you likely only have to unload one of those things, if any.

And for your #5, you didn't look carefully at the status window or you'd have seen that

[+] SPOILER

the code is one of the numbers backwards, beginning with 6 and ending with 9 [end spoiler].

I agree that there should be a notice in the information about mages and clerics that they're limited to learning a number of spells equal to the relevant stat/2. That is really upsetting to discover 2/3rds of the way through the game.

[Snonskoid]

Hi Kreador, thanks for replying.
Change headgear, shield down, weapon away, cast, change headgear, shield up, weapon up; seven moves, that's pretty much as far away as any beast starts from you. That's only casting one spell!
If you have to do, say, predator sight, nimbleness, ogre strength, chameleon, enkindled weapon, (as I have before every Taurax- and still barely got out alive,) there simply isn't time to fight for all the casting and mucking about.
In Book One you could cast with weapons up. That was playable. Book Two just isn't, in this regard.

[IJBall]

In Book One you could cast with weapons up. That was playable. Book Two just isn't, in this regard.

You still can in Book II - as long as the game hasn't gone into "combat mode", you can cast spells even when encumbered - that should give you a chance to cast a few spells like Ogre Strength or Bless or Haste (from a distance from your foe) before getting to the point where you'll have to de-weapon and take off gloves (and possibly switch headgear) whilst in combat.

[Snonskoid]

Thanks: but if you cast far enough away that it's not combat mode, the spell will be over by the time you're fighting.
Gone into the top level of Talushorn twice just now; used all my mana and healing potions, and a potion of restoration. Used all my demon oils and expensive arrows, killed a grand total of one Taurax Legionnaire before dying. How rubbish is that?
Other options are- go back into the plains and die fighting just as certainly there, or end up dying of thirst because I can't afford water after the ferry fares.
I've been playing this Ranger for a week and he cannot win. It's not like I'm a stupid player- I completed Book One without help. Anyone who can do Book Two as a Ranger first time of trying must be some kind of genius.
A disappointing sequel all around. A game you can't win is just no fun at all.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Hmmm. I don't think I'm exactly a genius (well, I am a genius but not a hard-core gamer genius ), but my first playthrough of Book II was with a Ranger. Admittedly it wasn't as easy as my second playthrough with the mage, but certainly it wasn't the kind of difficulty you're having. Sounds like maybe you haven't leveled up sufficiently yet, or you haven't used your points very effectively.

What level Bow skill do you have? Did you buy the training in Divination and Elemental, or are you just using the hat to get the skills? Sounds like you don't have foraging (or not very much) if you're having such water problems. There are wells all over to refill your water jug so you should never have to buy a drink. The only time I've been dehydrated was when I did a bunch of quick traveling and forgot to drink between stops (did 38 damage to myself, too).

[SpottedShroom]

1. By the time you've undressed to cast a spell, then cast it, then dressed again, the enemy is on top of you, and the spell's almost over. It's pointless. Are you supposed to map out all the enemies first, then reload the game a few turns back, and anticipate enemies you can't even see? It's not like real-time strategy!

Having to swap equipment a lot is certainly annoying. I tend to pick a set and stick to it - if I really need the spellcasting bonus hat, I'll live without the extra armor from a heavy helmet. Then unless you're very weak and have heavy gloves or a shield, you only ever have to swap your weapon out.

2. A Taurax with a to- hit of 28% will- guaranteed- hit me at least twice as often as I hit it, with my to- hit of 28%. The stated odds seem totally wrong to me. Is it deliberate?

This comes up a lot, but people have looked into it extensively and the percentages listed in the game are correct.

3. Having a limited spell- learning capacity is a nuisance. But failing to warn new players about it- so you waste your slots on rubbish spells- is a major defect that needs correcting. You put days of work into a character and then it ends up hampered by limited spell capacity. Very poor show.

Good point. It might be nice to display a message when you learn a spell - "you can learn X more divine/elemental spells with your current wisdom/intelligence score."

4. I didn't like having to kill a human first task out one little bit. It could easily be a Goblin who fooled that priest somehow.

The disciple quest is entirely optional, and I like having the option to do quests where the morality isn't entirely clear.

5. Those chests with the four- digit combination locks. None of the combinations from the wall of the mine work on any of them. WTF?

Check the FAQ: http://www.basiliskgames.com/forums/vie ... =12&t=3378

"While exploring the second level of Hammerlorne Mine, I have found a chest with a slider lock and a clue: "The combination is 6 - - 9". What is the number?"

6. Some of the best creatures from Book One haven't re-appeared: the Floating Eye, the Goblin, the Acid Grub. Instead we're playing with puppies and killing innocent Dwarfs! Aargh!

People have definitely complained about both issues before. The audio for the wolves doesn't particularly bother me, but I can see why other people disagree. And it's not strictly necessary to kill any dwarves to complete the game, although you have to play a certain type of character. And again, I like a certain degree of moral ambiguity.

[Snonskoid]

Thanks again, Kreador.
My max stats, without potions/ spells, are as follows.
Alchemy =5, Divination =12, Elemental =12, Bow =15, Swords =12, Light Armour =10, Forage =7, Shields =6, Armour Rating =50, Damage Red. =8, To- hit =21, Damage =27, Strength =31.
Not all maxima available at once, though.
At first, I put all my points into Bow and Swords, to get them up to 10 each. Then they went into the Elemental and Divination skills, so I could start to cast. Then into Alchemy, to imbue weapons/ armour +1. I wanted then to boost my Armour and Shields, but I kept having to raise Divination and Elemental, just to learn new spells. This has messed up my last four level- ups; I've been putting one point each time to each spells skill, and then one more alternately into Armour and Shields.

Thanks for the reply Spotted Shroom! I definitely missed something about those chests! Mea culpa; playing too late at night, I guess..,..

[Antigrav]

Thanks again, Kreador.
My max stats, without potions/ spells, are as follows.
Alchemy =5, Divination =12, Elemental =12, Bow =15, Swords =12, Light Armour =10, Forage =7, Shields =6, Armour Rating =50, Damage Red. =8, To- hit =21, Damage =27, Strength =31.
Not all maxima available at once, though.
At first, I put all my points into Bow and Swords, to get them up to 10 each. Then they went into the Elemental and Divination skills, so I could start to cast. Then into Alchemy, to imbue weapons/ armour +1. I wanted then to boost my Armour and Shields, but I kept having to raise Divination and Elemental, just to learn new spells. This has messed up my last four level- ups; I've been putting one point each time to each spells skill, and then one more alternately into Armour and Shields.

Unless I'm playing a mage, where my main offense is magic, I like to have at least 20 points in a weapon skill. I wouldn't normally stop until reaching 30. My rogue ("burglar") is level 10 right now and has 23 points in piercing weapons and 10 points in bows. I've sunk plenty of points into thieving skills and as such, I'm finding the drowned undead in Westwillow a challenge, but doable.

The higher your weapon skill, the better your chance to hit. I've also noticed that the better my chance to hit, the more frequent are my critical hits. You will also find that your feats refresh must faster with higher skill levels, which helps considerably.

Armor and shields are best left at 1 point, really. The best defense is a good offense.

[Snonskoid]

Thanks!
If you gather good armour and a good shield, and then use scarce ecto to harden them, it would seem to me to make sense to skill yourself up in their use.
Doesn't it?
Truly, when I get hit, it usually seems pretty devastating- 25 hit points there, another 40 there. You have one or two Taurax taking chunks out of you with an axe, and another skewering you with javelins. My character wants to enhance armour and shields as a priority. But if that's not how the game actually works, then it's another fault with the game.

N.B. Sorted out the silver combi- chests just now. Not a great help....

[Antigrav]

Thanks!
If you gather good armour and a good shield, and then use scarce ecto to harden them, it would seem to me to make sense to skill yourself up in their use.
Doesn't it?
Truly, when I get hit, it usually seems pretty devastating- 25 hit points there, another 40 there. You have one or two Taurax taking chunks out of you with an axe, and another skewering you with javelins. My character wants to enhance armour and shields as a priority. But if that's not how the game actually works, then it's another fault with the game.

N.B. Sorted out the silver combi- chests just now. Not a great help....

Whatever character type I'm playing, I do a lot of running away. Let's say "tactical retreating." What this does is allow me to find more favorable fighting ground, usually where I'm in as much shadow as possible while the enemy is as illuminated as possible. I also look for choke points, whether formed by hallways, doorways, objects, or trees or other terrain. You don't want to face more than one foe at a time (which is why the axe feat is weak). This is just as important for those armored head to toe in Dwarven Forged Lead as for mages clothed in leather pants and rayon.

Focus on one enemy at a time, reducing the number of attackers. Close with opponents that have ranged attacks using corners and taking advantage of parry mode. Thrown weapons (e.g., Taurax spears) don't seem to suffer a short-range penalty, but those skeletons with bows certainly do.

Spells or potions like Stoneskin will go a long way toward keeping you alive, in the end being much more economical than healing potions.

[xolotl]

Having to swap out even two pieces of armor to cast offensive spells, in a character who's supposed to be using offensive spells, is kind of an indication that the character isn't doing so hot. If you're playing a pure mage it's rarely a problem because you basically never need armor in the first place, but if you're playing a hybrid character, you're often much better served by using enhancement spells while the enemies are offscreen and then relying on your usual melee attacks to actually cause damage. I've played a few hybrid characters, and I always make sure that I'm at most one item-swap away from being able to cast the spells I need to.

As others have mentioned, having your skill points spread out so much, especially early in the game, can certainly increase the difficulty level significantly (unless you've been camping for reagents for game-months to get the money necessary to just buy the skills). You'd be better served getting your "main" stat up to near 30 before spending too many extra points on your support skills. The game definitely rewards specialization over generalization.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Thanks again, Kreador.
My max stats, without potions/ spells, are as follows.
Alchemy =5, Divination =12, Elemental =12, Bow =15, Swords =12, Light Armour =10, Forage =7, Shields =6, Armour Rating =50, Damage Red. =8, To- hit =21, Damage =27, Strength =31.
Not all maxima available at once, though.
At first, I put all my points into Bow and Swords, to get them up to 10 each. Then they went into the Elemental and Divination skills, so I could start to cast. Then into Alchemy, to imbue weapons/ armour +1. I wanted then to boost my Armour and Shields, but I kept having to raise Divination and Elemental, just to learn new spells. This has messed up my last four level- ups; I've been putting one point each time to each spells skill, and then one more alternately into Armour and Shields.

Thanks for the reply Spotted Shroom! I definitely missed something about those chests! Mea culpa; playing too late at night, I guess..,..

Looks like you spread stuff around a lot. Did you use the trainers and books to level up any of those skills? There are a lot of options in Eschalon, which gives you a strong desire to try them all out, but in a single character focus on a primary combat mode and then spread out when that's top-notch. When I play a Ranger, I put pretty much everything into Bows until I have it over 30 (with the special bow and the pendant, that will maximize the refresh rate of the bow feat to every 5th turn). The most important spells you want to learn as a Ranger are Dense Nimbus and Predator Sight.

For defensive stuff, right now in terms of armor there's not a lot of benefit to increasing your skill, and with shields you really need to focus on it to make it good (but I did create one character whose primary mode was piercing weapon and shield, and she was practically untouchable--of course, her shield skill was 43, and between that 98% chance to deflect incoming ranged attacks and using Parry mode, she almost never took a hit from a ranged opponent).

Also, learn to use the combat modes. They will amaze you. When you have a guaranteed hit (such as with the Bow feat) you should always be in maximum damage mode (the to-hit penalty doesn't matter in those circumstances). Parry mode when closing on ranged opponents for melee combat is a must.

As recommended elsewhere, while you are playing a great hero, you're one against armies. Always best to take out the armies one at a time when possible. If you're playing a Ranger, snipe them. Keep moving out of range of melee opponents. If they can't reach you, they can't damage you. The most dangerous opponents in Book II for a Ranger are the Taurax Spearmasters as they can actually hit you before you can even see them on the screen. This is where Dense Nimbus will save your life.

Eschalon is distinctly not a "charge in and slaughter the monsters" game. You'll find your greatest success learning the tactics and strategies that best support the kind of character you've developed. And, with all the possible combinations, you'll find the ability to create many different characters to utilize all sorts of skills.

[Toxxus]

I have to agree with the guy struggling. This is my first Eschalon toon and the food/water issues are straight up STUPID!

I figured I'd make a rogue and just suffer the cost of buying food and water as I went along. I was prepared to deal with the cost, however, there isn't enough food to feed JUST ME at the first towns in. The other residents must live on happy thoughts. Also, the prices are really high compared to what you get for selling things. I can sell a small ruby and a silver ring to buy...1...dried...meat.

Not knowing that health regen would be so slow and that food/water use would be astronomical has me on the verge of restarting the game. Even though I normally play with these things on. (Did fallout 3:new vegas with the hardcore mode and loved it.)

If I'm going low on the magic am I basically forced to have a high forage/first aid skill? Is the game even doable w/out turning into a mage/cleric?

[Randomizer]

If I'm going low on the magic am I basically forced to have a high forage/first aid skill? Is the game even doable w/out turning into a mage/cleric?

Once you get endurance up towards 40, then you can heal quite quickly.