Worst Advice Evar... ("Devs should avoid forums")

[TheBuzzSaw]

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/ ... never.html

I could rant forever about how terrible this blog post is, but I'll let you have it first.

Discuss.

[CrazyBernie]

He makes plenty of valid points, but if you're going to let criticism stand in the way of doing what you like then you probably shouldn't be doing it.

[IJBall]

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/ ... never.html

I could rant forever about how terrible this blog post is, but I'll let you have it first.

Discuss.

I vehemently disagree with his #2.

There's a reason why real companies set up teams do work. It's hard-to-impossible for one guy to come up with all the ideas possible. Even if you get two camps who have diametrically-opposite views on what you should do, so what?! - That's where the Indie developer's instincts (and previous knowledge-base on what exactly is achievable...) comes in to ascertain the best choice.

Anyway, just based on the ideas generated here on these forums (not all of which are implementable or worthwhile, mind you, but which have on occasion been awesomely good ), I think it's clear a developer can gain a lot more than they can lose by checking out their forums.

(Still, the one thing I've learned over the years is that, to have a good forum, on any topic, you've got to have moderators who are willing to throw elbows liberally to keep the forum in balance and to prevent it from spinning out of control. I think some people running forums are too unwilling to keep a firm hand in control...)

[Randomizer]

You haven't read his forums in depth. It's a seething flamefest about his games with Jeff regularly getting slammed about his games. Well maybe not that bad, but you do have those diametrically opposite views to the point that very few ideas get used and the games are steadily adjusted to get the most new gamers.

What's fun are the rare occasions outside of game release where Jeff starts reading and all of a sudden there are topics locked by him for content. Especially the ones that are primarily being posted by the mods. We haven't had a good evolution vs. intelligent design debate in a year.

[CrazyBernie]

Have you been to the Minecraft forums??

[ManusDei]

I would say it depends on the forum.

On swtor forums, it's exactly what he says, plenty of "dev hate". On guildwars2guru forum(not official forum, but as close as can be), it's much more calm. Here things seem fine.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Jeff is a busy guy. Besides cranking out a new game every year, he also maintains a blog, writes books, and contributes articles to other websites. I really have no idea how he does it all, but ignoring his forums is certainly one way to free up time. I don't fault him for that, but I do think that keeping in touch with your fan base is pretty important.

As for hate posts, yes, they are hard to read. But, I don't have any problem with locking hate posts because they generally violate our No Trolling rule. If someone wants to give constructive critisism on our games, I'll be happy to join the discussion. But if the message simply proclaims "this game is a piece of shit", then yeah, that topic is going to be locked. It doesn't hurt my feelings, but it also doesn't help us make the next game better.

[Evnissyen]

Randomizer: From what I remember, it wasn't really nearly so much about people not liking his games (actually, those people tended to get gang-trashed really quickly), it was much more the "I liked the other one better" mentality, multiplied by the number of regulars. The Spiderweb forums are really, really cliquish, and there're too many people there pining for the original Avernum or the original totally-non-linear Geneforge and lamenting any progress. Someone comes along once in a while and suggests that the new has made great progress over the old, and you've got an instant argument.

Honestly, if I were Jeff, I think I'd avoid those forums as well.

[IJBall]

You haven't read his forums in depth. It's a seething flamefest about his games with Jeff regularly getting slammed about his games. Well maybe not that bad, but you do have those diametrically opposite views to the point that very few ideas get used and the games are steadily adjusted to get the most new gamers.

Well, I've only been reading the Spiderweb forums since Avernum 6, but I have to say I haven't really seen anything like that in my casual perusal of the Avernum 6 or General forums since then...

[Randomizer]

Avernum 4 release, which was when I joined, had a real split between those that liked the older game engine and those that like the Geneforge based new game engine. Then there was the real hatred of Jeff recycling Geneforge graphics and using a clawbug (scorpion) for the chitrach (praying mantis) graphic that resulted in replacing that most offensive change. It still carries over into Avernum versus Geneforge, Exile versus Avernum, Mac versus PC (guaranteed to be locked), new member versus old and what makes an older member, and us versus the spambots. Some members were banned mostly because of language and getting around the autocensor.

It's mostly gone now to save server space, but there used to be long debates in the Blades of Avernum forum on game design and which was better, the older non-linear worlds where you could explore until you died or the current linear design where you can't enter a new section until you've completed a specific quest. Most of the civility is gone and the mods have to be there to keep things quiet since Jeff wants a family friendly environment.