The Drunken Lizard Pub

argv wrote:Do the suppliers of this music ask you to encrypt the music in the game's data files?

Maybe. Different music authors have different licensing terms. Most authors don't allow the music to be distributed separately from the game or media in which it is used, but some take it further and require the developers to take steps to protect their copyrighted material.

If I may say so, you're looking at this the wrong way. This isn't about you and what you want to do with the music. This isn't about the developer and how they bundle the music. This is about the author of the music and how they want to go about protecting their work. You may not be happy about it, but you can't change it by badgering the developer. Take it up with the music's author.

Though you should be careful about how you approach the music's author, too, since you don't know the specific licensing terms under which BW obtained the music, or whether or not the music's author has full rights to their work (could be joint ownership or ownership of an employer), or if any other contracts on the author's side limit how they can distribute their work. There's a lot of potential factors that you're probably not aware of.

MyGameCompany wrote:...This is about the author of the music and how they want to go about protecting their work. You may not be happy about it, but you can't change it by badgering the developer.

And why not? A decision has been made by the developer to include such music which has turned out to have negative consequences for the consumer (the slower area load times which can be seriously irritating when traversing multiple levels rapidly, as is possible in Kuldaad, or when doing multiple reloads). As a consumer, I take care to boycott authors who choose protection methods or licensing conditions that have the potential to cause inconvenience, yet it appears in this case that a decision has been made for me.

BW, would it be possible to release a version of Book II without the restricted-license music and no encrypted packing? I would rather have faster load times - even if it means sticking with Book I music only.

AstralWanderer wrote:A decision has been made by the developer to include such music which has turned out to have negative consequences for the consumer (the slower area load times which can be seriously irritating when traversing multiple levels rapidly, as is possible in Kuldaad, or when doing multiple reloads).

Um, I think you're seriously exaggerating that load time issue, and assuming that it's the crypto which is causing the longer times - it's entirely possible that these horribly-long five second load times would be just as long without the crypting.

Regardless, I don't think you're going to find much support for your proposed/threatened boycott, as the whole thing is highly ludicrous. If you're looking for abuses of freedoms, or whatever, you can look practically anywhere else in the commercial games industry. A five-second load time for a level is hardly egregious.

xolotl wrote:Um, I think you're seriously exaggerating that load time issue, and assuming that it's the crypto which is causing the longer times - it's entirely possible that these horribly-long five second load times would be just as long without the crypting.

Load times are variable with five seconds being an average (2-10 seconds depending on the level). It could be due to something else but given that book 1 doesn't suffer from them, it seems the most likely cause.

As for commercial examples - feel free to go ahead and list any that go to such lengths (as opposed to just using custom formats) so I can avoid them . Aside from 3DMark2005, I've not come across anything close.

AstralWanderer wrote:BW, would it be possible to release a version of Book II without the restricted-license music and no encrypted packing? I would rather have faster load times - even if it means sticking with Book I music only.

Leaving the data files unencrypted does very, very little to improve load times. Encryption isn't the enemy here- decompression is.To decompress data takes time. But we don't use any compression on our packed data, so why the slowdown??

Well, the language we use does not have native streaming music capability built into it. So, music tracks (highly compressed OGG files in this case) must load fully into memory as a standard uncompressed audio format. The two big delays you often see during a map load process is always the two music tracks being loaded then decompressed in memory.

There are some 3rd party options available to us that will allow streaming audio and avoid the load times for music files, but we won't integrate it into Book II. It will have to wait for Book III- or more likely the next engine after the Eschalon engine is retired.

AstralWanderer wrote:As for commercial examples - feel free to go ahead and list any that go to such lengths (as opposed to just using custom formats) so I can avoid them . Aside from 3DMark2005, I've not come across anything close.

If you don't think that the now-industry-standard DRM practices included on practically every non-indie game is far worse than a game choosing to internally package its contents in whatever way it sees fit, then I doubt we're going to find much common philosophical ground here.

BasiliskWrangler wrote:Well, the language we use does not have native streaming music capability built into it. So, music tracks (highly compressed OGG files in this case) must load fully into memory as a standard uncompressed audio format. The two big delays you often see during a map load process is always the two music tracks being loaded then decompressed in memory.

Thanks for the update BW - in that case, would it not be feasible to include the "Basilisk-owned" music tracks as unpacked .ogg files (avoiding any delay in processing these) and having the "restricted licence" tracks as a separate packed (and optional) component?

xolotl wrote:If you don't think that the now-industry-standard DRM practices included on practically every non-indie game is far worse than a game choosing to internally package its contents in whatever way it sees fit, then I doubt we're going to find much common philosophical ground here.

I would say that "industry-standard DRM" (if such a thing exists) is hardly a relevant comparison since you're then talking about restrictions on running a game, as opposed to just listening to its soundtrack.

To give some counter-examples, games like Age of Wonders (1 & 2), Morrowind, Oblivion, Neverwinter Nights (via a converter), Europa Universalis (1-3), The Witcher, Haegemonia, Divine Divinity and Heroes of Might and Magic (3 and 5) all have individually accessible soundtracks. Restricting access to this is very much the exception in my experience.

BasiliskWrangler wrote:The two big delays you often see during a map load process is always the two music tracks being loaded then decompressed in memory.

Have you considered loading those in the background, and letting the player start the map for a few seconds without music?

Not that I think loading times are a problem (have you played Mass Effect 2?), but just for the sake of argument.

AstralWanderer wrote:[I would say that "industry-standard DRM" (if such a thing exists) is hardly a relevant comparison since you're then talking about restrictions on running a game, as opposed to just listening to its soundtrack.

Sure it is - the whole discussion is about rights. I agree that DRM and datafile encryption deal with different rights, but it's the same fundamental question (and I personally find the former far more worrisome than the latter). You feel like you should have the right to access whatever data from the game that you want. You don't. It's great that other games give you access to that information, but I just don't understand the sense of entitlement about it. You purchased a game, not a soundtrack.

Anyway, it's clear we're not going to find middle ground here, so I'll shut up about it.

xolotl wrote:You feel like you should have the right to access whatever data from the game that you want. You don't.

It seems awfully Orwellian to forbid people from examining what's on their own computers. Not that any business or government seems to care.

Orwellian is when it reports everything you do back to a central authority. It has nothing to do with Copyright law.

And like it or not, this is all about copyrights. Some stuff is distributed with rules. You don't have to like the rules, but without them BW wouldn't have gotten permission to include the music in the game.

Anyway. I believe I agree with the last thing xolotl said here.

Copyright does not have anything to do with my personal use of materials in my possession.

Actually, it does, since those materials aren't your 'personal' materials.

As Snoop Dogg would say, "Drop it like it's hot."