The Drunken Lizard Pub

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:

Randomizer wrote: I have an unarmed fighter at 31 in uarmed fighting skill at level 9 character that is ready to go slap mire trolls.

Is that with or without the Brawler's rings? That should be some pretty great punching. Have you upped the strength a lot?

I finally got my first Brawler's ring for unarmed combat 33. I'm at strength 14 and speed 16 since I put almost everything into endurance and starting wisdom so I can gain ogre strength and nimbleness. It took until level 4 before I could consistently hit things by increasing unarmed combat.

With blood lust ring, brawler's ring and animal rage amulet it's to hit 22 and max damage 22+3 in normal mode, but I usually use power mode for to hit 15 and max damage 29+3.

Well, thanks to KillingMoon and Kreador for their input. That's what I've been doing wrong all this time! I haven't been hitting left-shift to use my Focus skill. If I had: I'd've had a much easier time and wasted much fewer arrows!

I really, really wish I'd known this, sigh... .

Was it in the PDF that came with the game? I haven't even bothered reading it... now I'm going to.

As for darkness: early on I got a hat that gave me 1 point in Elemental, then hiked up my intelligence to 15 so that I could learn Gravedigger's Flame and Predator Site. Helps a lot since you can't shoot a bow while carrying a torch.

Here're my character's stats, level 1 & level 5, compared :





Yes, true: I did hike up my strength anyway, despite the dex advantage of being female . . . so I could cast spells without switching gear.

Notice: Move Silently only gained through Featherwalk Ring. 2 cartography from amulet plus 4 points investment (I like detailed maps, it's a weakness). I also invested 1 point in Spot Hidden because I figured that should prove helpful: my only extravagance other than cartography . . . but this means I'll have to hike up Perception from now on in order to take advantage of it, since my perc is low. Sigh... .

I'm thinking: next level I'll add 3 points in Bows (to 15) and 3 points in perc (to 15).

Her alternate equip is unarmed with an Animal Rage amulet (+2 damage), a Brawler's Ring (+2 unarmed combat) as well as the Featherwalk Ring.

Jedi_Learner wrote:

Evnissyen wrote:Sure, it has a plot. No narrative, though, at least so far, and this is bad. The narrative should start at the very beginning and pull you in foot by foot.

No narrative? Could you please elaborate.

Of course, man. What I mean: Plot is what tells you, essentially, "This here's the situation." The situation in this game is that somebody's after you and the others in your guild. Also, somebody or some group of people -- likely the Taurax -- are trying to unite the gems and you must stop this at all cost.

So: that's a plot.

Now, narrative is different. Narrative is just storytelling. When you have a game where things happen and you derive meaning from it and that directs you someplace and characters have reactions to it and act based on it, and events react to you and act upon you, and when you reach that place then you find out new things and there're new developments and you have new information and then you have other directions on your hand and new concerns . . . and basically you are moved through the game as if on a kind of conveyor belt . . . that's narrative.

I don't think I'm explaining it well, but essentially: Plot tells you the situation. Narrative carries you along. Narrative is a boat you take and you don't know where it's going to go because at some point, maybe, Poseidon, who's really pissed off at you, is going to cause a storm and throw you off course. But I've gotta get to Penelope! Too bad. The story has brought you someplace else.

To use another metaphor: the narrative thread is the thing you hold onto so you don't get lost. It's something you want to rely on, like a brother or sister, although he or she always, always disappoints you.

Now, this is just me: but I think that a game as challenging as this one would be helped by such a thread. It helps if you have a boat, even though Poseidon keeps throwing you off course. No matter what: your boat you can rely on.

Until Poseidon destroys it. But then you build another boat.

My reasoning, mostly: if there's a strong narrative, then when we get frustrated with the game: the story will call us back, we'll want to follow the story. The story is intriguing. People love stories. We want to know what happens next. As it is, however: the only thing pulling us into the game against all frustration is curiosity over the places we haven't explored: and that's just not enough, at least for me.

Of course, I understand that Eschalon is intended to be a different animal. I know. And I know that others' gaming perspectives are different from mine. Lots of people prefer open-ended games with no narrative to confine things for them. They want to run free.

The problem, however, arises when the player get frustrated and needs something to pull him or her back in.

If Book 3 wants to still go with the freestyle no-narrative: my advice:

Best thing BW can do is expand on character depth. Make characters with real personalities who interact with you on a regular basis. That's important, I think: it keeps you interested, you want to know more about these people and you want to come back and play -- if nothing else -- for these people that you've come to love. It's what makes a game like NwN2 great, and it's just human to want to do so.

Lovable characters, BW? Please, please, please?

as someone who was having starting trouble I found the following to be immensely useful:

at least a few points of mercantile to start
same for forage
get that weapon skill to 10 as quickly as possible.

being able to buy things and having a weapon feat makes the beginning of the game much more enjoyable, otherwise it's kind of grindy.

interestingly Ghorr was a letdown

as a kindly poster advised me, the game rewards one-trick ponies. that's largely true, but I found subsequent characters with some magic, or even some alchemy, to help a really high combat skill are quite powerful. For example, a ranger with really high bow and predator sight spell !

Evnissyen - you need to increase bows to reduce the time between feats and to use parry mode more effectively when not firing. Perception/spot hidden is always a problem for finding traps before you are sure they were there.

Evnissyen wrote: Narrative/Plot Jargon

I like to explain it like this:

Plot = Outline

Narrative = The Report

Again, probably not the best description, but I figure enough people had to at least write reports in school... 0_o

In regards to your ranger: def. invest more Bow points... and switch to finess mode (+30% chance ToHit) if you're having trouble hitting an enemy... but don't forget to switch to power mode (+30% Damage) when firing off that Bow Feat.

While I was really frugal, I never found myself out of arrows... I actually had to stash stacks of 'em so that I could carry loot.

CrazyBernie wrote:

Evnissyen wrote: Narrative/Plot Jargon

I like to explain it like this:

Plot = Outline

Narrative = The Report

Ah, Bernie...

Sometimes you're just so hard to like... .

You know . . . he asked me to elaborate, and I did. I went ahead and told him a story, I thought I'd entertain him, and you had to go ahead and reduce it all to a lousy school report. Bringing bad memories into it, and everything.

Typical.

I hated school. I really did.

But... you're right about Power Mode... I'd totally forgotten about the ability to switch attack modes. Totally forgotten. I guess I just haven't been playing the game often enough.

As for arrows . . . I've now got somewhere around 250... so I'm doing well, I think, finally. I haven't checked how much they weigh, but I might actually have to dump some of them if I start having trouble casting Gravedigger's Flame & Predator Sight without switching equip setups.

One thing that should be fixed: if your torch goes out and thus you obviously drop it: you can't cast a spell because of weight issues which, in this case, don't even exist because you're not carrying a torch any longer . . . but . . . if you never bring up your torch in the first place: you can cast a spell.


Randomizer:
Yes, good advice. I was going to raise perception up to 18 for lvl 7, but for now I think I'll invest in either Dex or Con instead... not sure which. I seem to sense that Dex is more helpful for a ranger than Concentration, but on the other hand... it might pay off to start bringing that up from its base 20 before I continue raising Dexterity from 30. Not sure, yet.

I wanted Spot Hidden because I remember its value in Book 1, that in certain areas you pretty much had to have it, and there're certain areas in Book 2 where I'm thinking: There just has to be a secret door here, why can't I find it? If only I had Spot Hidden and lots of Perception: I could find it. But if it's only useful for locating traps... well, I suppose it can wait until I build up my marksmanship.

I figured: 15 Perc. base minimum, but with 18 perc. and 3 Spot Hidden (with my new ring) I should be able to spot most secret doors or secret openings in the more 'basic' areas. If there're secret openings that can only be found with 18 perc. & 3 SH: it makes sense to me to raise Perc. to 18 and Bows to 28 at lvl 7.

I'll definitely raise Bows to 28, next level I'll bring it to 30 and add an extra point into either pick locks or cartography... but as close as I am to lvl 7 (these early levels come quickly . . . that's typical with most games, just not by lvl 7): I'm still debating, do I want:
18 Perception (30 Dex & 20 Con)
33 Dexterity (15 Perc & 20 Con)
23 Concentration (15 Perc & 30 Dex)

I don't know, I guess I'll probably go with Concentration, because I haven't raised it yet and it deserves to be brought up more... I suppose. Bring that up to 23, then Dex to 33, then Dex to 35 (and Con 24), then Con to 25 (and Perc to 17), then finally Perc to 20 at lvl 11?

And Bows to 28, then 30 (and cart. 7), then Pick Locks 5, then Bows 33, then Bows 36 at lvl 11?

Question: at what point do Bows & Dex begin to give you diminishing returns?

Dex improves your chance to hit, and your natural armor rating which helps defensively. Con improves your to hit, and also how much you can carry or hold in your hands when casting (which makes it very useful for a Ranger who wants to use some magic as well).

The arrows don't affect your ability to cast in combat. Only gloves and weapon (and shield/torch/lantern, if you're using one).

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:The arrows don't affect your ability to cast in combat. Only gloves and weapon (and shield/torch/lantern, if you're using one).

Thanks, that's useful to know, since 141 arrows at this point (I just used up a whole bunch) amount to 14.1 pounds.

Still, even taking that out: I'm still carrying well more than the 5 pounds max the game tells me I can carry and cast a spell while enemies are near.

So... I suppose it must be only what's actually in your hands that addresses your spellcasting ability?

The bow is 4.4 lb. and my gloves are .6 lb. ...but add on my two rings and that's 5.2 pounds. Which would explain why getting rid of the bow allows me to cast spells when enemies are near.

When leveling up at lvl 8, just now, I chose Dex. More beneficial.
+3 concentration (=23): no benefit
+3 dexterity (=33): +1 armor

adding 3 in Bows (brought to 18): +1 to hit, +2 max damage.
adding 2 in Bows (brought to 17): +1 to hit, +1 max damage.

I chose the latter so I could bring up my cartography to 7, which means that now I can see all pathways, not just the major ones, as well as barren areas. I figured it was worth holding off on that +1 max damage (which is still only a chance percentage, not a given) for another level, just so I can have the luxury of having a complete map.

So... I think I'll forget about Concentration from now and focus on Bows and Dexterity. I don't need any more points in Cartography so I can forget about that . . . and Perception & Spot Hidden can wait, though I'll have to tackle them eventually. Well... at some point soon I suppose I should probably hike up my Pick Locks skill as well (since it's only at 2). I can pick most locks pretty easily, at this point (usually just short of 50%), but that's just not going to last.

I just checked, and: When I raise my PL from 2 to 5, a 47% lock becomes a 55% lock. Increasing Dexterity by 3 did not increase my chances at all, although the game says it's supposed to. Maybe there'll be a significant increase if I add another two points, I don't know.

Many of the benefits from attributes seem to come in increments of 5. It can be confusing, because for some things there are two attributes that apply; for example, Armor is affected by both Speed and Dex. If your Speed is 14 and your Dex is 18 (total 32), adding 1 to speed or 2 to Dex will have no apparent effect. But adding 3 to either one (bringing the total to 35), will raise your Armor by one.

It's the same with Speed and Strength for damage. I'm sure there are other examples, but they're not all so easy to see on the stat screen. With lockpicking, it's supposed to be Dex and I think Int? Anyway, I've tried donning Dex gear and drinking Nimbleness potions for tricky locks, and the difference has never been more than a few percent. Like, single digits.

Turtle wrote:Many of the benefits from attributes seem to come in increments of 5. It can be confusing, because for some things there are two attributes that apply; for example, Armor is affected by both Speed and Dex. If your Speed is 14 and your Dex is 18 (total 32), adding 1 to speed or 2 to Dex will have no apparent effect. But adding 3 to either one (bringing the total to 35), will raise your Armor by one.

It's the same with Speed and Strength for damage. I'm sure there are other examples, but they're not all so easy to see on the stat screen. With lockpicking, it's supposed to be Dex and I think Int? Anyway, I've tried donning Dex gear and drinking Nimbleness potions for tricky locks, and the difference has never been more than a few percent. Like, single digits.

One point about this - in Book I, your "rule by +5 (points)" was a good bet; but in Book II, I think some things improve by less than +5 points. I can't cite any specific examples... except maybe Move Silently - but some Skills are modified by an increase in Attributes of only +3 or +4, instead of needing the full +5.

(To your specific point about Lock Picking, though, you're right: basically, I think every +1 pt in DEX only raises your Lock Picking chance by a measly +1%. )

Evnissyen wrote: Ah, Bernie...

Sometimes you're just so hard to like... .

You know . . . he asked me to elaborate, and I did. I went ahead and told him a story, I thought I'd entertain him, and you had to go ahead and reduce it all to a lousy school report. Bringing bad memories into it, and everything.

Heh. Sorry, but when people ask me to elaborate ("expand on that"), I tend to do the opposite: give a simple, easy to understand answer. I figure it's what they really want. 0_o

The bad memories part was just a little added bonus I threw in... no extra charge.

But... you're right about Power Mode... I'd totally forgotten about the ability to switch attack modes. Totally forgotten. I guess I just haven't been playing the game often enough.

My biggest problem is remembering to switch back... sometimes I really get frustrated when I can't hit an enemy... then the "duh" moment kicks in.

I wanted Spot Hidden because I remember its value in Book 1, that in certain areas you pretty much had to have it, and there're certain areas in Book 2 where I'm thinking: There just has to be a secret door here, why can't I find it? If only I had Spot Hidden and lots of Perception: I could find it. But if it's only useful for locating traps... well, I suppose it can wait until I build up my marksmanship.

It's quite useful in a certain cave... but I couldn't give you a numerical value... I don't mess with the numbers like some of the others 'round here do.

Evnissyen wrote:Thanks, that's useful to know, since 141 arrows at this point (I just used up a whole bunch) amount to 14.1 pounds.

If you truly want to be an arrow-miser, then you'll need to rely heavily on the Bow Feat... which means a good amount of running around waiting for it to pop... but the more points you stuff in Bows, the faster it becomes available.

Thank you for so much replies.

Yesterday I gave my Mage one more Chance and it was great. With your usefull hints and some other spells (Fireball ) its much easyer than before. I will try the other char´s too, but first of all i try to beat the game with my mage!

Thank you!!

CrazyBernie wrote: Heh. Sorry, but when people ask me to elaborate ("expand on that"), I tend to do the opposite: give a simple, easy to understand answer. I figure it's what they really want. 0_o

Yeah, you're probably right, actually. At any rate, I tend to be just a little bit over-expansive. (No pun intended.)

I really ought to do something about that.