Min-Maxxing & Exploits

[sterno]

I recently bought books 1 and 2 and played them over the holiday. I finished book 1 and am maybe 70% through book 2.

I played book 1 without really knowing where the trainers were. Early on I restarted so that I could min/max cartography, but otherwise I just sort of let it roll.

So when I finished it and moved on to book 2, I felt compelled to go hunt down spoilers for which trainers existed and where so I wouldn't "waste" skill points. I'm sure this says more about my psychology than it does about the game, but apparently I'm not the only one with this problem. I feel like I'm wasting points if buy a new skill for 3 points at level up and then 20 minutes later in a game find a trainer who would have given me the same effect for 100 gold.

For people with better self control or who think discovering this stuff and then using it on their next playthrough is fun, then it's great. For someone like me, it drives me a little nuts. It causes me to go hunt down spoilers, which I'd prefer not to do.

I definitely agree with the ideas I've seen that it would work better if the cost and benefit was the same no matter what you currently had in the skill. I like the idea of trainers... I just don't like the idea that I should hunt them down and get all I can out of them before spending my level up points on a skill.

So I guess I'm just one more vote for having the cost be fixed, and the amount of "skill point gain" you're getting by training being the same no matter how many points you've already got in it. Then I'll feel like I can just come upon them at my own pace.

I would definitely say to always put the cartography trainer early in the game though. That's the one skill that you really want sooner rather than later. When I didn't see a cartography trainer in the starting area of book 2, that was the thing that finally made me break down and check out skill trainer spoilers.

[IJBall]

Let me throw in a little bit of a contrary opinion to some of the views expessed in this thread.

I personally am puzzled by some people (and it's not necessarily the people who have posted to this thread - I'm talking more generally about a few people who've posted to these forums over the last couple of years...) who have been quite vociferous on the trainer/min-maxxing issue - it's like some of them don't expect to play the game more than once and want everything handed to them the first time through the game! Let me tell you, it took me at least 3 play-attempts before I got it right with Book I and was able to finish it; and it took me a second play-attempt before I was able to nail Book II. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really understand the people who don't expect to have to start over at least once while playing Eschalon.

Now, all that being said, I don't have a huge problem with changing the way trainers work so that they provide benefits even to higher Level players.

But, having said that, I do have a problem with a higher Level player being able to, say, buy eight levels in a Skill! I think I'd offer a modified proposal to the trainer issue:

1. If a player is able to buy a first level in a Skill (for 100 GP), then they should be able to buy up to (say) the first 8 Levels in that Skill (assuming Book III sticks with the Book II format of buying Skills) for the usual 200 GP, 300 GP, etc.
2. However, if a higher Level player comes upon a trainer, either they should only be able to buy, say, at most, 3 Levels or 5 Levels in that Skill (i.e. not the "full" 8 Levels), and/or the cost of buying those Levels should be higher than they would be for the "Level 0" player (e.g. instead of the 3 Level-boost costing 100 GP, 200 GP and 300 GP, perhaps it should cost 200 GP, 400 GP, and 600 GP for the higher Level player).

But I feel like some limit should be placed on higher Level players buying Skill levels from trainers, if that's the way we're going to go in Book III. Otherwise, I worry that we're going to quickly get into maxxed-out "uber" character territory if some limitation isn't placed on this. (Aside: Having no limitation on buying Skills from trainers would also mess up the "Jack of All Trades" game challenge...)

I do, however, agree that the Cartography trainer, in particular, should be available fairly early on in the game (as he was in Book I) - especially before any substantial dungeon! The Cartography trainer was, perhaps, too far into the game in Book II.
(Also: The other two trainers that should be available fairly early on are the Forage trainer and the Repair trainer - they don't need to be in the game as early as the Cartography trainer, but you should be able to get the trainers for Forage and Repair around the same time as you find the trainer for Alchemy...)

Just my $0.02...

[Dragonlady]

I do, however, agree that the Cartography trainer, in particular, should be available fairly early on in the game (as he was in Book I) - especially before any substantial dungeon! The Cartography trainer was, perhaps, too far into the game in Book II.
(Also: The other two trainers that should be available fairly early on are the Forage trainer and the Repair trainer - they don't need to be in the game as early as the Cartography trainer, but you should be able to get the trainers for Forage and Repair around the same time as you find the trainer for Alchemy...)

Just my $0.02...

My sentiments exactly. Annoyed the heck out of me to get half way into the game before discovering where a Repair trainer was and all that trouble to get to the big city for cartography! Not being able to use the mini-screen till then is very discouraging for newbies. Perhaps a trainer that only trains up to level 3? And then further into the game someone who'll train a couple of levels higher?

Not having repair skill near the beginning of the game has made me turn off that option when starting a new game. Just my 2 coppers worth. Shrug.

[SpottedShroom]

Cartography is such a vital skill even on second and later playthroughs that I wonder if it should even continue to exist. I wouldn't at all mind getting the benefit of fairly high-level cartography by default, and renaming Reveal Map to something like Detect Enemies.

I personally tend to suffer through until I get to the cartography trainer, even on my first play through Book II. I just can't justify spending early skill points on a convenience skill. Even if there was no trainer, I'd probably still wait until my combat skills were nicely filled out before taking any cartography.

[omnom]

So agreed that skill points from books should be evened out with the cost of getting a new skill. I'd do it by lowering the cost of new skill from 3 to 2. Also, I might even add two or three volumes for each book and make a single book grant 1 skill point. But not without a mechanism that would inform the player "You have already read this book". Obviously this reminder would be disabled in Hardcore

[CrazyBernie]

I do, however, agree that the Cartography trainer, in particular, should be available fairly early on in the game (as he was in Book I) - especially before any substantial dungeon! The Cartography trainer was, perhaps, too far into the game in Book II.
(Also: The other two trainers that should be available fairly early on are the Forage trainer and the Repair trainer - they don't need to be in the game as early as the Cartography trainer, but you should be able to get the trainers for Forage and Repair around the same time as you find the trainer for Alchemy...)

Just my $0.02...

My sentiments exactly. Annoyed the heck out of me to get half way into the game before discovering where a Repair trainer was and all that trouble to get to the big city for cartography! Not being able to use the mini-screen till then is very discouraging for newbies. Perhaps a trainer that only trains up to level 3? And then further into the game someone who'll train a couple of levels higher?

Not having repair skill near the beginning of the game has made me turn off that option when starting a new game. Just my 2 coppers worth. Shrug.

What a couple of spoiled little brats!

Seriously though, if you aren't willing to invest a few skill points into a skill if you think it's needed, then I've got no sympathy. Especially if you're willing to go without a skill until you find a trainer.

That being said, I think that everyone should have a base mapping ability... Cartography should just enhance it from there.... more map detail, maybe more Quick Travel points, and less time/food/armor wear from QT'ing. I also agree that the Reveal Map spell should be converted to something like "Awareness," and while we're at it, get rid of that Cartography Amulet... and nip that annoying reverse map draw feature in the butt.

I wouldn't mind seeing trainers either removed completely, or have some sort of requirement before you can train... like a quest of some sort. You could even have different levels of trainers... one low level trainer that gives you a couple of points, then maybe a master trainer that gives you more later on. Removing them completely (or at least limiting them to a one time point bonus) might give rise to other methods of handing out skill points...

[IJBall]

What a couple of spoiled little brats!

Eh, I gotta be me!

Seriously though, if you aren't willing to invest a few skill points into a skill if you think it's needed, then I've got no sympathy. Especially if you're willing to go without a skill until you find a trainer.

One, IMO, very relevant rebuttal to this point - Book II gave you 25% fewer Skill points to spend at character creation than Book I did, so it's literally not possible to squeeze in an "important", but "non-core", Skill like Cartography into most early character builds. (I think, in my first playthrough, I may have gone with Cartography anyway, but it came at the expensive of something equally (if not more) important like Pick Locks or Repair...)

This is perhaps my biggest gripe with Book II vs. Book I.

Which is why I think I'm adding going back to 20 Skill points to spend at character creation to the Book III 'wishlist'...

[Antigrav]

What a couple of spoiled little brats!

Eh, I gotta be me!

Seriously though, if you aren't willing to invest a few skill points into a skill if you think it's needed, then I've got no sympathy. Especially if you're willing to go without a skill until you find a trainer.

One, IMO, very relevant rebuttal to this point - Book II gave you 25% fewer Skill points to spend at character creation than Book I did, so it's literally not possible to squeeze in an "important", but "non-core", Skill like Cartography into most early character builds. (I think, in my first playthrough, I may have gone with Cartography anyway, but it came at the expensive of something equally (if not more) important like Pick Locks or Repair...)

This is perhaps my biggest gripe with Book II vs. Book I.

Which is why I think I'm adding going back to 20 Skill points to spend at character creation to the Book III 'wishlist'...

I like the idea of trainers not simply pumping up your skill points in exchange for gold, but possibly giving you your feat once you're qualified for it. Even better, you have to earn it by completing some mission for them, which may or may not be savory. Better still, there are two feats available for each weapon, and the good-guy trainer will give you one feat while the sketchy trainer will give you a different feat, and your choice determines which you will use for the rest of your character's long life. Say for bows or thrown weapons, the "good" trainer would teach you how to salvage missiles while the "bad" trainer would show you how to effectively hit two targets in one shot.

For non-weapon training, quests still could add special techniques or recipes, or even spells.
Alchemy: recipe for a memory-erasing potion that reduces you a level (lose exp as well) in return for some skill points
Cartography: NPC draws a location or two on your map, in detail
Meditation: some slight boost to health regen along with mana
Dodge: boost to missile avoidance
Hide in Shadows: a bonus to mêlée attacks while hidden
Pick Locks: less pick breakage
Skullduggery: PLACE traps! mwahahahaha
Spot Hidden: radius extended by 1 square

[xolotl]

One, IMO, very relevant rebuttal to this point - Book II gave you 25% fewer Skill points to spend at character creation than Book I did, so it's literally not possible to squeeze in an "important", but "non-core", Skill like Cartography into most early character builds. (I think, in my first playthrough, I may have gone with Cartography anyway, but it came at the expensive of something equally (if not more) important like Pick Locks or Repair...)

Yeah, I started my first Book 2 playthrough with a point in Cartopraphy. I didn't feel cheated by the choice, though. :) 'course, it turns out that I stumbled across Kuudad sooner than you're "supposed" to (after a few mad dashes through spider-infested caves and the like) so I ended up encountering the trainer perhaps earlier than most people would have.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

I like the idea of trainers not simply pumping up your skill points in exchange for gold, but possibly giving you your feat once you're qualified for it. Even better, you have to earn it by completing some mission for them, which may or may not be savory. Better still, there are two feats available for each weapon, and the good-guy trainer will give you one feat while the sketchy trainer will give you a different feat, and your choice determines which you will use for the rest of your character's long life. Say for bows or thrown weapons, the "good" trainer would teach you how to salvage missiles while the "bad" trainer would show you how to effectively hit two targets in one shot.

Yeah, then we could have Mr. Miyagi teach Parrying for Unarmed Combat after you fix up his house and wash his wagon.

[Antigrav]

Yeah, then we could have Mr. Miyagi teach Parrying for Unarmed Combat after you fix up his house and wash his wagon.

Alternately, you could go to the other coach who gives you a cool uniform and lessons in beating up smaller and weaker opponents without mercy.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Yeah, then we could have Mr. Miyagi teach Parrying for Unarmed Combat after you fix up his house and wash his wagon.

Alternately, you could go to the other coach who gives you a cool uniform and lessons in beating up smaller and weaker opponents without mercy.

The other guy teaches you the "sweep" move. Didn't you see the second film? Or was that the third? Anyway, it knocks your opponent down so they can't attack you and you get a free second move (while they have halved defenses for the round).

[staylost]

Ah, for me it is all pretty simply to fix the skill trainers/books (extraskill points).

Simple fix:
Skill trainers add a certain amount of points through their training (like five) and books continue to add two. You CANNOT add skill points from book or trainer unless you already have at least one point in the skill already.

Make sense?

So if I have 11 in Bows and I read the book, I go up to 13. Then I use the trainer all five times I go up to 18. If I have 0 in bows, neither the trainer or the book even make sense to me. The book is teaching you specific extra knowledge you couldn't've gained on your own. Same with the trainer. However, if you've never learned this skill on your own, you would never be able to understand the book or the trainer in a meaningful way in the first place.

This makes every group happy. The min-maxers don't have to metagame to get max skills. The hard-luckers get a game where you have to spend those 3 points to get a skill if you really want it, no way around it. Also the trainers can be anywhere in the world. You don't need Cartography at the beginning because you would've had to invest in Cartography anyway if you really wanted it.

I STRONGLY endorse this idea BW, but I'll be honest. I will try to buy EB3 regardless and really appreciate you games.


Other thoughts:
Also, please throw out that "certified trainer" nonsense. It sounds like I'm reading an add for a Hangzhou ESL school. Hide trainers like you did with the thieves trainer and give them quests to unlock them like an earlier poster suggested.

[SpottedShroom]

Also, please throw out that "certified trainer" nonsense. It sounds like I'm reading an add for a Hangzhou ESL school.

Ha! Certified Trainers would give you a professional certificate in the skill, but not actually improve the skill at all. "Oh, don't worry about that guy, he's only got an MSCE in sword fighting."

[KillingMoon]

I must be Mr Boring, as I don't have an issue with the way training worked in Book II.
The first time I came across this feature in Eschalon I found it somewhat ungamely to pay money for a skill, but okay, I got used to it, and the gamely element is in the bookkeeping, so I've adjusted my first impression. How trainers work is fine with me. For consistancy reasons I wouldn't throw the current system overboard.

But most suggestions already brought forward in this thread sound fine with me as well, and wouldn't be much of a break with the current system.

No trainers is too radical for me, but I would rather see less trainers than more.
Quests to get skills? Yeah, why not.
One trainer for a base level and another one for a more advanced level? Also okay for me; Eschalon already has seperate blacksmiths for cheap gear and better stuff, and this would fit in fine as well.