The Drunken Lizard Pub

in regards to the general topic i have to admit that i feel that rangers and thieves really could do with some more love with melee and casters being "more powerful" in almost all circumstances

to be honest however i'm find myself somewhat confused regarding tungprc's assessment that "a mage does need as many hp as a warrior" due to the fact that "They're getting hit as often ... wearing less armor" (i would agree that they usualy do less damage per shot while being dependent on mana) as the range/aoe of spells usually kill or greatly weaken most while buffs such as haste, invisibility etc and the lack of amour penalties for casting would lead me to believe that casters would receive less damage than their melee counterparts (with the possible exception to the endgame were i assume that the chance of getting hit is 2% in most cases for all classes)

with that said i would have to agree with Loriac that "the key in balancing Eschalon is not in the classes (or peoples' preconceptions about what the classes should be) but rather in the skills themselves."

Punter you happen to be very mistaken. However, please don't take this statement as an insult to you. It is not. What he is refering to is the fact that if you build a mage type character you do not have any melee defenses like a warrior has via Heavy armor, but your mana runs out before you can finish a battle and still your spells have not killed your foes. Leaving you facing the same toe to toe melee battle with the monster. Let me show you an example of what a fighter build and mage build look like with the same starting points spent on just the skills needed to run that class and you will see the issue in that aspect alone.

Warrior Mage
Stats Stats
Str 25 (added 10) Str 15
Dex 25 (added 10) Dex 25(added 10)
End 25 (added 10) End 15
Spd 15 Spd 15
Int 15 Int 20(added 5)
Wis 15 Wis 20(added 5)
Per 15 Per 30(added 10)

Skills Skills
Weapon, Sword 5 Elemental 3
Heavy Armor 5 Divination 3
Weapon, Bow 5 Alchemy 3
Dodge 2
Weapon, Dagger 2
Meditaion 2

As you can see the Mage build has to spend the points spread farther apart than the warrior has to. Meaning in 10 levels the warrior will have 15 in all the three skills and will have 15 in Elemental/Divination, but only 4-5 in the other skills. Depending on how they spend them.

sorry to sound like an idiot but are those builds typical?

the reason i ask is that the builds seem to me deliberately trying to gimp themselves while also ignoring skill books/trainers/equipment

Necromis wrote:Punter you happen to be very mistaken. However, please don't take this statement as an insult to you. It is not. What he is refering to is the fact that if you build a mage type character you do not have any melee defenses like a warrior has via Heavy armor, but your mana runs out before you can finish a battle and still your spells have not killed your foes. Leaving you facing the same toe to toe melee battle with the monster. Let me show you an example of what a fighter build and mage build look like with the same starting points spent on just the skills needed to run that class and you will see the issue in that aspect alone.

Warrior Mage
Stats Stats
Str 25 (added 10) Str 15
Dex 25 (added 10) Dex 25(added 10)
End 25 (added 10) End 15
Spd 15 Spd 15
Int 15 Int 20(added 5)
Wis 15 Wis 20(added 5)
Per 15 Per 30(added 10)

Skills Skills
Weapon, Sword 5 Elemental 3
Heavy Armor 5 Divination 3
Weapon, Bow 5 Alchemy 3
Dodge 2
Weapon, Dagger 2
Meditaion 2

As you can see the Mage build has to spend the points spread farther apart than the warrior has to. Meaning in 10 levels the warrior will have 15 in all the three skills and will have 15 in Elemental/Divination, but only 4-5 in the other skills. Depending on how they spend them.

Don't take offense Necromis, but you happen to be mistaken, and your build sucks. Here is how a warrior mage might look:

Str 14-> 20 (boosted by up to 30 using Ogre strength)
Dex 12 -> 15 (boosted by up to 30 using Nimbleness)
End 20 -> 20
Spd 10
Int 14
Wis 12 -> 14
Per 25 -> 40
Conc 12 -> 20

Note, this leaves a *lot* of attribute points to distribute as you see fit. You start with End 20 and Per 25 to maximise starting hp and mana. You raise str to 20, anymore is optional (this gets you +5 hp per level).

Skills -

buy sword and bow from trainers, +2 for books, + 3 skill points each ->10 in each skill, skill points spent = 6

light armor - use the book to get 1 pt in this skill (don't worry about the penalty to start with, its completely irrelevant for the first 6-8 levels as long as you can cast fire dart level 6). Then raise up to say 10

elemental - raise to about 20-23 total
divine - wait til Blackwater (you don't need to use divine spells til mid-level, as you can rely on elemental for offence until then), then train 5 and buy 12 points, total 17 (add on a priest's cloak, and you have 20, enough to cast the tier 2 spells at level 6)
alchemy - train 5, book 2, spend 2 skill points -> 9 (+6 from 2x brewmaster ring = 15)
dodge - ignore
meditation - ignore
weapons - dagger??? no way, just use swords, we're not playing 1st ed D&D
meditation - ignore, not required if Per =38+

Again, this leaves a *lot* of skill points spare.

Your starting character will have approx 50 hp, 70 mana, and can cast level 6 firedarts by level 2 if you pump elemental (only) up by 5 points at 1st and 2nd level. Save other skills til you get 1st point through training or books.

Add on a few nice spells, and this character will destroy most melee fighters.

Stoneskin = no need for armor skills (it provides damage resistance, which is exactly what you use armor skills to do)
Ogre strenth, nimbleness = huge boosts to str and agi
bless, enchanted weapon, enkindled weapon = +6 to hit, +30 to damage (!)
haste = the 'I Win' spell

This is before you start looking at damage spells, and status effect spells (e.g. stun)

A mage can survive very well on firedart level 6 up to level 6-8; this gives you long enough to accumulate the gold and skill points you need to boost all melee skills in mid-levels through training and books. You certainly don't need to start off by training melee skills.

Most of you are being extremely myopic here. The answer to this question has nothing to do with "well here's how I built my guy to do X, but this other guy can do X!" Each of those posts is a special case and if BR addressed those complaints in a vacuum, he would possibly (but not likely) fix it while certainly causing others. Fixing all those complaints would be a "hack" in coding terms.
The solution here can be found by abstracting the game mechanics away from your pet character and digging down as low as needed to find the root problem. Most of you are only seeing leaves. You need to follow the twigs, branches, and trunk.
Loriac is closest by far, but he got distracted by something anecdotal about half-way down the trunk. But to be fair (as I said before), the OP asked the wrong question and that's basically the question Loriac answered. You need to figure out what the correct question is first.
I'm not being cryptic to be an ass, but because I want to see what kind of discussion can come out of it without my just dumping my answers out.

This is a good thread and I want to see where it goes.

Necromis wrote:As you can see the Mage build has to spend the points spread farther apart than the warrior has to. Meaning in 10 levels the warrior will have 15 in all the three skills and will have 15 in Elemental/Divination, but only 4-5 in the other skills. Depending on how they spend them.

I believe your analysis is flawed; the difference between these characters is not in the core skills, but in the chosen side skills. Why would the mage need alchemy early on? Why would you consider dodge to be a core mage skill ~ it's arguably more useful for a warrior, since there would be more opportunity for use? Even in the stats, why are you assuming that a mage would need to pump Dexterity, or even need to get Intelligence (or especially Wisdom) up to 20 early on?

If anything your analysis is an illustration that better skill distribution choices have a critical impact to the effectiveness of a character.

For the record, I'm with Loriac on this one: Don't balance classes (or more to the point the effectiveness of melee versus magic) specifically, balance skills in general.

i could be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time ... nor the last ) but i think Necromis is trying to show a warrior build vs a mage build as opposed to a warrior mage build but i admit to being somewhat confused by the skills choices

punter x wrote:i could be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time ... nor the last ) but i think Necromis is trying to show a warrior build vs a mage build as opposed to a warrior mage build but i admit to being somewhat confused by the skills choices

hmmm, having looked again at his post, I see what you mean punter x.

Funnily enough though, I would build a pure mage the way I built the warrior mage above (substitute dagger, unarmed, or blunt for sword if you really want to be pedantic... )

And, the thing is, Necomis's builds really are very poor, as they don't play to the strength of either a warrior or a mage

quasius wrote: I'm not being cryptic to be an ass, but ...

Oh how I wish we were on the Codex boards to respond to this post...

Loriac wrote:

quasius wrote: I'm not being cryptic to be an ass, but ...

Oh how I wish we were on the Codex boards to respond to this post...

I'm sure you can respond here if you want.
You're close to what the problem is. You correctly abstracted it away from any specific "build." But then you started to try fixing it without really identifying what your trying to fix and why.
Put another way, why is "balancing" important?


Edit: I also don't feel the need to preface everything I say with IMO, which might put some people off. But it's logically implied.

quasius wrote:

Loriac wrote:

quasius wrote: I'm not being cryptic to be an ass, but ...

Oh how I wish we were on the Codex boards to respond to this post...

I'm sure you can respond here if you want.
You're close to what the problem is. You correctly abstracted it away from any specific "build." But then you started to try fixing it without really identifying what your trying to fix and why.
Put another way, why is "balancing" important?


Edit: I also don't feel the need to preface everything I say with IMO, which might put some people off. But it's logically implied.

for me (using the "IMO" that you dislike ) it's more that some degree of balancing is preferable as currently the "classless class" of the generalist reigns as the further on the game you get it becomes increasingly viable to cast spells, use a bow when low on/seeking to preserve mana and hacking away in melee buffed by the remaining mana when in combat while having no problems with locks/traps outside combat meaning that any "proper" class is either playing a deliberately weakened character or merely a path to take on route to the generalist

quasius wrote: I'm sure you can respond here if you want.

Have you ever been to the Codex forums? Trust me, they are somewhat different in style to these ones...

As to fixing things, I'm not sure which post you're referring to. However, if I was fixing balance in this game, I would do the following:

Have a class of skills which range from 0-10, where 10=100% success (lockpick, disable trap, merchant, cartography etc). I.e. all the single function skills that only allow you to do one thing. Note that I would give no benefit for the skill being > 10.

I would get rid of meditation and survival, or put them in the category above and disable the increased regen effect from End and Per. I would consolidate hide and move silently to 'stealth', which would maybe go up to level 20.

Weapon and armor, I would allow to go up to 20, on pretty much the same terms as they are now.

Magic I would allow to go to 30, with the caveat that tier 2 spells would require a minimum of 10 skill to cast, and tier 3 a minimum of 20. I would balance against the other skill classes by ensuring that to replicate the effect of another skill, I would always be spending slightly more in magic. E.g. you would need skill level of 20 to be able to lockpick at 100%. Where skills and spells could stack, e.g. bless + weapon skill, I would power down the magic skill and make it more expensive than currently. E.g. at skill level 10, allow a level 3 bless - this means that swords 10 + divine 10 -> +8 to hit and damage, vs. +10 for swords 20. I would also make bless, enchanted weapon, and enkindled weapon not stack; i.e. enchanted weapon becomes the elemental equivalent of bless, and enkindled gives you an alternative damage type. I would also boost the direct damage spells under this regime (as many people asking to play 'pure mages' are shouting for), as your mage is going to be much more restricted than now with his other skills.

The reasoning behind all this would be that I should be able to make an effective rogue (say) by taking stealth to level 20, picklock 10, traps 10, leather armor 10, sword 10 plus a few other skills. He'd be a great thief, and be able to hold his own in combat. Or I could make a mage with elemental 30, divine 20, leather armor 5, sword 5 who would be reliant on magic to substitute for skills. And so on.

It would require extensive playtesting to get the balance right though.

punter x wrote:
for me (using the "IMO" that you dislike ) it's more that some degree of balancing is preferable as currently the "classless class" of the generalist reigns as the further on the game you get it becomes increasingly viable to cast spells, use a bow when low on/seeking to preserve mana and hacking away in melee buffed by the remaining mana when in combat while having no problems with locks/traps outside combat meaning that any "proper" class is either playing a deliberately weakened character or merely a path to take on route to the generalist

Winner!

Eschalon's problem is that there are no mechanical boundries to push people into archetypes. Some games use "classes." Eschalon was trying to be more subtle but didn't quite get there.
As long as any "archetype" can do the same basic things as another one, the "balancing" question is moot. If "caster" scores a 4, "warrior" scores a 6, and "generalist" scores an 8, "fixing" caster and warrior to both score 5 has not really fixed anything.
The question of "what's unbalanced?" is wrong because there's nothing to balance in Eschalon.

Loriac wrote:As to fixing things...

No, no, no. Stop getting buried in the specific mechanics. You need to clearly define a goal first, then design the mechanics. You jumped right to coding without enough design.
That's what I meant when I said you were real close. You almost backed up enough, but then stopped to poke at some shiny mechanics.

and you are right. I was not trying to make a warrior mage. I was just giving examples of what a typical person would do to build each of those classes w/o assuming later on I could buy the skills or get the books. You have to remember if someone got book I w/o reading all of the forum posts they would have no clue about all the in game spoilers we know about these things. I agree my build is flawed, but it was a quick and dirty example of the skills you need for each. You are right that now we know you don't need to build meditation as perception alone does that. However dodge is good to NOT be hit, you also won't find stoneskin till typically blackwater so you may not always have. Also was also trying to show how someone who is trying to play a typical *true* mage cannot survive as his costs are higher than a typical *true* warrior. If you forget all skills you can buy in the game you can truly see how a warrior can easily out do a mage, and warrior is not overpowered.