The Drunken Lizard Pub

It's a deceptive oversimplification, to be sure - in words it sounds like "the old limited DOS from the early 90s," but in reality, what's left of "DOS" has none of the memory limitations of earlier versions, and very little capacity to do anything, really, except decide in which of several modes to start up Windows. So little of the original DOS remains, that it seems like it should just be called "the Windows bootloader". And every OS has a bootloader, so it's not like something unique or painful about Windows.

The true 32-bit versions of Windows, from Windows NT, are not based on MS-DOS but provide a command-line interface similar to MS-DOS's character-mode interface known as the console. This is provided by a native executable, cmd.exe. Many Windows console applications are incorrectly referred to as MS-DOS applications. However, in reality they are Windows applications, using Windows system calls, using the text console for input and output rather than a graphical interface. Both true MS-DOS programs and Windows console programs can be run from the command line in the same console window.

32-bit Windows can run MS-DOS programs through the use of the NTVDM (NT Virtual DOS Machine), and the 16-bit command.com interpreter which is still included to maintain application compatibility with programs that require it.

All versions of Windows for x86-64 and Itanium architectures no longer include the NTVDM and can therefore no longer natively run MS-DOS or 16-bit Windows applications. There are alternatives in the form of Virtual machine emulators such as Microsoft's own Virtual PC, as well as VMware, DOSBox, and others.

If anything, DOS runs on top of Windows. Windows hasn't "sat on DOS" for over ten years. That's why you need a DOS emulator to play Daggerfall on a computer that's running Windows 2000 or newer (to keep somewhat on topic).

No reference on that quote, but.. no matter. I find it interesting, enlightening. I've learned some things.

The necessity for DOSBox is a good point, actually. Very near unassailable, except that I never said having a DOS system required also having the same equipment and technology that the old 80's & 90's DOS games were reliant upon. For that, of course, you need an interpreter. Enter DOSBox.

Here's all I have to say: You can call it whatever you like. DOS Lite, DOS Redux, DOS Shell, bootloader, whatever... I don't care. What it amounts to is 1. every time my PC freezes and I have to restart the machine: the computer boots me into something that looks an awful lot like the old DOS shell. Completely ANSI/ASCII based. (What the difference is I don't even remember any more, or really care.) Pathetic. And if I want: 2. it allows me to go into the . . . um . . . what should I call it? Well, something involving a command prompt where, if you type the phrase DIR then you get a list of items on the current directory. Okay, it doesn't have the same capabilities or the same requirements as DOS, but it's still a command prompt... .

Now... true, I don't know the complete dynamics and everything else about how PC'S are constructed in order to comply with Windows, and of course vice versa. However: what I do know is what I see, and what I see is early 80's technology still being employed in the year 2010.

Really, I don't want any arguments. It's not something to get excited about. We're way off topic, anyhow.

Unfortunately, I've nothing more to say about Daggerfall, o well.

Evnissyen wrote: *snipped*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS - More than you want to know about DOS/Windows

A preboot environment that doesn't load drivers/use resources and gives you troubleshooting options is far less pathetic than: "you see a blue or gray screen, an icon of a broken folder, a kernel panic, a flashing question mark, or a computer that just sits there," IMHO (quoted from Apple's website). Just because it looks like DOS, doesn't mean it is DOS. Every operating system has some sort of command prompt.

And you should probably understand that OS X is far more like Windows 95/98 than the current iterations of Windows. After all, at its heart it is an Apple designed GUI sitting on top of a custom Unix kernel. It has a command prompt/shell, just like Windows does (in case you missed that). It has a Safe Mode, just like Windows does. Apple just hides the "fun stuff" so everyday users can't tweak it.

I'm not trying to argue with you over which OS is better, but making broad accusations about stuff you don't understand... it's like popping the hood on a Bugatti Veyron (ok, well... the trunk) and saying "Pffft, it's an internal combustion engine, what an old, low-tech piece of crap." Or... "My VW Golf has never given me problems - they're the most reliable vehicle ever." I've had people brag to me about how well Windows runs on their Mac, and continue to trash Microsoft on how unreliable their OSes are. To me, that's a testament to how well Windows is built, and how well it can run when backed by good hardware.

I was serious when I suggested you get in touch with your MFG about your computer. It has a warranty, so you should use it. It's possible that something as simple as changing out a stick of ram could solve all of your crashing problems. Snubbing your nose at it because it's not a Mac and your Mac has "never given you problems" doesn't really do *you* any good. But it's your money. *shrug*

Some D-Fall Action: Me getting ready to dance with a Thief. Running in DOSBox using D-Fend for Windows Front-end. Graphics @ 800x600, using DirectDraw for an overlay. 2xSai looked a little better.

Just remember: No matter how much you might want it to be otherwise: in life just as in politics: appearances are always important. Always. You can argue until your throat hurts about this or that technical issue... if people can't see it, it effectively doesn't exist.

CrazyBernie wrote:It has a command prompt/shell, just like Windows does (in case you missed that).

No, I certainly didn't. The computer language -- not shell -- is there for anyone who wants to access it, should they have the desire.

Apple just hides the "fun stuff" so everyday users can't tweak it.

Actually, Apple doesn't hide it. Anyone can use it. It's there for the purpose. But most people don't use it because 1. they don't feel they need to (and they don't) and 2. most people don't know Unix.

I don't use it for the same reasons. If I knew Unix, I'd explore it. (And, honestly, although I could certainly decide to learn Unix, I have too many more urgent things to attend to. Honestly, I waste way too much time as it is, and... well... I really should be getting some of this stuff done.)

I'm not trying to argue with you over which OS is better, but making broad accusations about stuff you don't understand... it's like popping the hood on a Bugatti Veyron (ok, well... the trunk) and saying "Pffft, it's an internal combustion engine, what an old, low-tech piece of crap." Or... "My VW Golf has never given me problems - they're the most reliable vehicle ever."

Painful as it is to admit you've hit a nerve: I concede to you on that: you're correct. I'm arguing about issues I really should not be arguing about. Just remember where this disagreement came from:

Evnissyen wrote:(By the way, Bernie: as of this date: Windows 7 has crashed more times than I can count. More often than XP, anyhow. There goes your fallacious hope of a Windows OS as reliable as Mac. )

(I suppose there's always Windows 8 (aka Sunburst Godsend) to look forward to... .)

...In other words: All I wanted to say was: don't try to sell me any nonsense about how the latest Windows is the best OS ever. I've literally been hearing this argument since I was 14.

I'll save all my grievances against Apple™ for another time. You've probably heard them all, anyhow.

But at least their OS is still smooth, and easy to work with. All an artist wants from an OS.

By the way: you might not remember, but before the iMac (the original: that is, the half-football), the Mac had a little device that, if I remember correctly, they called a "Programmer's Tool". You snapped it into the side of your IIcx or IIci. It had two levers: one to startup the machine (they later put a button on the keyboard for that purpose), and the other to send you into the computer language. I do not know what language they used back then (I don't feel like looking it up), but now they use Unix. So... you can go into Unix. Anyone can. And... that's a computer. Whee!

But... no ASCII frames.

I was serious when I suggested you get in touch with your MFG about your computer.

Eh... I'm still warring with Cyberpower™ over the fact that they forgot to send me discs. Might be the last time I use them. But... in spirit you're right. Problem is: I don't have the time to learn all there is to know about all my components, so I'd put money down that they'd just end up telling me, "It's the software. We can't control that."

Now... back to the topic on hand... sort of.

I think I'll give Daggerfall another try once I finish EB2... although, honestly, aside from having to finish coding the webjournal properly (which shouldn't really take long, anyhow): I really do have to get back to my writing, and that will take up a lot of my time, if I can finally get myself back into it. (Please, emotional state, please?)

Evnissyen wrote:Just remember: No matter how much you might want it to be otherwise: in life just as in politics: appearances are always important. Always. You can argue until your throat hurts about this or that technical issue... if people can't see it, it effectively doesn't exist.

... and it is infinitely more evident when you're talking to an artist. =P If "appearances" where that important, Apple would have a much larger user base.

Evnissyen wrote: Just remember where this disagreement came from:

Evnissyen wrote:(By the way, Bernie: as of this date: Windows 7 has crashed more times than I can count. More often than XP, anyhow. There goes your fallacious hope of a Windows OS as reliable as Mac. )

(I suppose there's always Windows 8 (aka Sunburst Godsend) to look forward to... .)

...In other words: All I wanted to say was: don't try to sell me any nonsense about how the latest Windows is the best OS ever. I've literally been hearing this argument since I was 14.

I've already stated that I'm not arguing "mine is better than yours." But I do believe that Windows 7 is the best Windows that Microsoft has released. And once again, regarding reliability... well let's go back to the car analogy. Find me the most reliable car... Warranty Direct will tell you its the Honda Accord. Now... put a jar of peanut butter in the crankcase. Put a potato in the exhaust. Pour sugar in the gas tank. When you start having problems... are you going to say "Man, Honda's are unreliable pieces of shit!" ... ? On a more realistic note... let's say you drive your unmolested Honda Accord to the gas station and fill 'er up. Unbeknownst to you, the gas had some contaminants in it and was bad. Your car starts sputtering and backfiring like my father after he eats a can of baked beans (don't ask). What do you do? Do you blame Honda for their crappy, unreliable vechile? Or do you find out that the gas was bad and rip the gas station owner a new one?

But... no ASCII frames.

Yes, yes, looks are everything... see above.

Eh... I'm still warring with Cyberpower™ over the fact that they forgot to send me discs. Might be the last time I use them. But... in spirit you're right. Problem is: I don't have the time to learn all there is to know about all my components, so I'd put money down that they'd just end up telling me, "It's the software. We can't control that."

So get on the phone, and call them now. If you've got time to read this, you've got time to bitch 'em out. They also have live chat, so you can talk to them on your Mac while you troubleshoot your PC/work on something else. If they ask you to reload, you can say "send me my @#$$!# discs!" But don't make the assumption that they're going to brush you off and you'll be just another brick in the wall. It's like the Powerball... if you don't play, you won't win. Cyberpower, Inc is a BBB Accredited Business, and you have a 3 year warranty, as well as Lifetime Technical Support. If you have to, get an RMA for the whole damn system. Don't just write it off because you've had stellar luck with a MFG whose products are only marginally better reliability-wise.

Another screenie; skeletons are a total biatch when you're a rogue... I've died several times before I finally killed one... and now I'm stuck between a skelly and an imp... either way I go I'll die and I can't camp in between them... *sigh*

Bernie wrote:And once again, regarding reliability... well let's go back to the car analogy.

...sigh...

Hell, you have a hard time agreeing to a truce, don't you?

In that case, only one thing:

CrazyBernie wrote:If "appearances" where that important, Apple would have a much larger user base.

Now... I know you're joking (and not just because of Mr. Green), but to answer that, I'll ask you one question in return:

Question: What's more important than anything else in the world?

Hint: The answer is not Love.

Okay, two things:

Bernie wrote: I've already stated that I'm not arguing "mine is better than yours." But I do believe that Windows 7 is the best Windows that Microsoft has released.

I give you:

Bernie wrote:The best part about Windows 7 is that Microsoft for the first time listened to the consumers. W7 is stable, its fast, it's got every bit as much "gloss" to it as OSX and more. I know several people who purchased Macbook Pros for the sole task of installing Windows 7 on them... they never even boot up OSX. ... Windows 7 is killing OSX right now [EDITOR'S NOTE: because Windows is the default OS for every PC (which are cheaper and better for running Dragon Age on)? Just guessing. As for the previous claim . . . HA HA HA HA HA! Anybody who did that would officially be a dumbass. Want Windows? Buy a cheap laptop, dumbass. If you want an apple on the cover: go buy a decal... or get one off a Mac user (they come with the computer).] ... and rightfully so. When has Apple ever listened to their customers? [EDITOR'S NOTE: 1984 (original Fat Mac) and 1987 (color Mac II: Jobs' dumb stubbornness finally overruled, if my history is correct) . . . other than that, though... they haven't been doing any more "listening" than MS, but then again: what corporation does "listen"?.)

Alright, so you've never explicitly stated that "Windows 7 is the best OS ever!!!!", but you've sort of implied that opinion several times.

...Which I guess I shouldn't be criticizing, now that I think of it, , since I've sort of, well, been doing the same thing in regard to OSX, when people (read: Bernie) start[s] attacking OSX on the way to praising W7.

Of course, nothing wrong with liking your own OS. In fact: I should hope you like your OS. Used to be: most people didn't, ahem. But the past is gone, thankfully.

I mean: I want to Windows users to be happy, alright? There, I said it. Does this make me a bad Mac fanboy?

At any rate, regarding:

I wrote:(By the way, Bernie: as of this date: Windows 7 has crashed more times than I can count. More often than XP, anyhow. There goes your fallacious hope of a Windows OS as reliable as Mac. )

(I suppose there's always Windows 8 (aka Sunburst Godsend) to look forward to... .)

Yeah, um... I'm going to have to write myself a little stickies reminder, now: No more teasing my friend Crazie Bernie about Windows!


Anyhow... back to topic, finally...

I've actually gone ahead and installed DOSBox on my new machine, the one running Windows 7. We'll see how it goes. All I have to do is establish the GAMES directory and off it goes, and I'll see if I can get Daggerfall to work, finally... and probably spend very little time on it.

Didn't I have a separate GUI DOSBox around here? I have one for my Mac, anyhow. Well... I'll search around. I thought I had one for PC, too. If not I'll just download it.

My guess: this might be on the way to becoming a bilingual thread for an uncomfortably long time . . . perhaps up until the point when BW decides he's had enough of us and locks the thread... or suspends both me and Bernie... in which case, I suppose one of us will try to continue the argument on GMail, or something.

Perhaps if good ol' Necromis returns then I can get my rocks off arguing with him over politics?

But I refuse to argue with Jedi-Learner about anything. He gets too angry. Takes it personally.

Maybe I can argue with Dragonlady about something?

No... that would get me reduced to a lump of ash really quickly.

Just like the opening of EXODUS . . . isn't that how the opening screen went?

Evnissyen wrote:Question: What's more important than anything else in the world?

Hint: The answer is not Love.

Hmmm... the answer is not "Looks" either... so it's either money (aka resources)... or who has more bullets (aka resources). Of course, that's one of those "entirely based on opinion" things... So I'm gonna go with "Air." Steve Jobs would go with "me," or "having followers." But I also was only half joking to begin with... ^_^

Evnissyen wrote: **Editor's Notes**

Some people actually like the Apple Hardware. I won't fault Apple for their aluminum casings. I guess that leans into the whole "appearances" thing that you're so crazy about.

Evnissyen wrote:Alright, so you've never explicitly stated that "Windows 7 is the best OS ever!!!!", but you've sort of implied that opinion several times.

While opinionated/biased, have I stated anything that's explicitly untrue? Also, that was another thread, and another conversation... which while related, was not the focus. So I'll have to call "foul" in this instance. =P

Evnissyen wrote:My guess: this might be on the way to becoming a bilingual thread for an uncomfortably long time . . . perhaps up until the point when BW decides he's had enough of us and locks the thread... or suspends both me and Bernie... in which case, I suppose one of us will try to continue the argument on GMail, or something.

Nah, I'm pretty much done. My ADHD limits my desire for arguing to just a couple of thread pages. You'll have to work pretty hard to fire me up for more than that. You've conceded to enough of my points where I'm satisfied that I made enough points... and that you largely understand the general gist of my long-winded "Windows isn't unreliable" thread-jacking, even if you still refuse to believe it based mostly on personal experience. I suppose my technical experience in part is what's fighting againt that "personal experience" thing. Something inside of me gets very angry whenever someone trashes something based soley on their personal experience or "their friend's" personal experience (oooh, "their friend's" really gets me riled up). When I worked at Best Buy, there were these "the customer is always right" and "their perception is your reality" mantras that management tried to stuff down our throats. I was one of the first to call "Bullshit." Maybe that's why I had repeat customers... 'cause I wasn't some cookie-cutter employee and actually offered up my own opinions, with facts and information to back them up. Maybe that's why I don't shop at Best Buy anymore... because I know that most of the employees don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Anyways... back on topic.

I (as previously stated somewhere back in all that stuff) us D-Fend Reloaded for my DOSBox frontend (aka "GUI"). It's not the most svelte interface, I'm sure... but it's got lots of options and customizability for getting those games back up and running. I actually need to make a seperate profile for Daggerfall; I've just been editing the default DOSBox config... >.<

CrazyBernie wrote:

Evnissyen wrote:Question: What's more important than anything else in the world?

Hint: The answer is not Love.

Hmmm... the answer is not "Looks" either... so it's either money (aka resources)... or who has more bullets (aka resources). Of course, that's one of those "entirely based on opinion" things... So I'm gonna go with "Air." Steve Jobs would go with "me," or "having followers." But I also was only half joking to begin with... ^_^

The answer is actually "money". Money's more important than appearances. But appearances are, to the annoyance of many people who've studied things in-depth and are trying to explain them to people who have not done so, still quite important.

For example, take the oil spill. Sure, Obama's administration are probably doing a whole lot more 'behind the scenes' than we know, but we don't see it. They haven't shown us images of them doing stuff. Appearances, man. Obviously the Administration has made more mistakes than that, but... even if there's only so much they can do... just looking like you're doing all you can do helps people feel better about the administration: "Hey look! The Adminstration's out there doing something! They're on the Gulf Coast actually doing something! Shouting orders! Directing clean-up crews! Hurray! Explaining things to us! Well... it doesn't look like a whole lot is being accomplished, but... well, at least I can see how difficult everything is... unlike that parallel-universe-me who blamed you for being a lame president because you looked like you weren't doing anything at all, like you couldn't even raise a finger to fire somebody . . . okay: this-universe-me now forgives you for what that bonehead alternate-universe-me didn't understand." Appearances are important. Alternate-universe-person didn't understand because he/she couldn't see what was happening. Once this-universe-person actually saw: then they understood.

Hard to make that analogy clear without explaining more and that would go into different territory. At any rate: more on that later.

Some people actually like the Apple Hardware.

Really? Oh... sorry.. back to fanboy mode.

I won't fault Apple for their aluminum casings. I guess that leans into the whole "appearances" thing that you're so crazy about.

Hmm... interesting. Okay, whatever. You know more than I do about laptops (I've never owned even one, although I've always wanted to own one... I just never get around to it, when it's time for a new computer I always go for the Desktop. And I try not to use other people's either. Despite my desire for one... don't like the keyboard or other people's very odd insistence on not using a mouse.)

While opinionated/biased, have I stated anything that's explicitly untrue?

...well... mostly either specious or misleading. But no matter. I forgive you.

Bernie wrote:

Evnissyen wrote:My guess: this might be on the way to becoming a bilingual thread for an uncomfortably long time . . . perhaps up until the point when BW decides he's had enough of us and locks the thread... or suspends both me and Bernie... in which case, I suppose one of us will try to continue the argument on GMail, or something.

... You've conceded to enough of my points where I'm satisfied that I made enough points...

Ahh... so it's points you're after, eh? Eh? Well, I'm an honest guy, I'll concede points wherever they're earned.

Something inside of me gets very angry whenever someone trashes something based soley on their personal experience or "their friend's" personal experience (oooh, "their friend's" really gets me riled up).

Oh. Now I understand something about you I didn't before. That's an interesting point.

See, there's the rare benefit of having an honest 'discussion' (well... 'disagreement': more accurate). Maybe I can give you something in return.

When I worked at Best Buy, there were these "the customer is always right" and "their perception is your reality" mantras that management tried to stuff down our throats. I was one of the first to call "Bullshit." Maybe that's why I had repeat customers... 'cause I wasn't some cookie-cutter employee and actually offered up my own opinions, with facts and information to back them up. Maybe that's why I don't shop at Best Buy anymore... because I know that most of the employees don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Heh. No comment on the last line. But, 1. You're right about the return-customers issue. Whenever I'm looking to buy something from a department store: I'm looking for honest info and honest experiential opinion from the salesperson. I mean... the reason I'm there and not at Amazon.com is because I want knowledgeable input which I haven't been able to get from one of my friends or roommates. So... I'm always appreciative of people who're honest, and I cannot stand salespeople who tack to the common thread. Yes, I know they're thinking that the boss is listening and if they don't spew out the common lines then their job is in jeopardy... but the irony is that if I return then I avoid them... I probably won't buy from them... and if somebody's honest with me then I'll return to them. (Like the Mac people next door, I feel like I can always go there for their honest opinion on anything, they never try to sell me anything or get me to hire them to repair anything, they always just answer my question, honestly.)

2. However... in a way, those mindless jerks at Best Buy are right. The phrase "the customer is always right" is flawed but it has some aspect of truth. No, the phrase and mantra itself is completely untrue, but the focus has its meaningful attributes.

I've never heard "their perception is your reality" before, but it does sound typical of the kinds of dumb phrases that always get pushed around in offices and between stores and are taught in management tactics classes or whatever you call them. Anyhow... that phrase, too, is also partly true despite its stupidity. I'm sure you know why, so I won't offend you (or bore anybody) by going into long explanations about why.

My only point: these things, about the customer's perception... their 'personal experience', their 'friend's experience', about appearances... all these things matter. The person might be wrong, but they don't know they're wrong until they're shown it. Reality, yes, is shaped by experience, and by your friend's experience.

So... what you're doing is fighting against other people's realities. Your reality is based on all this experience and research, while the customer's is based on something they experienced or their friend experienced. It's your job to... well, not educate them, but rather to add to their experience, to add to their thoughts. To add in things that will make them alter their opinion. If they haven't done all the research you have and done all the fiddling around with computers and components as you have... what do they have to work with? Their one or two good or bad experiences and/or their friends'/coworkers' good or bad experiences or opinions. So... you have to add to that. Help them along. No, you don't just say "you're right"... like, well, let me see, like, for example, those annoying psychoanalysts who refuse to fight me (don't ask, just an example)... but instead you say "you're actually wrong, and this is why" . . . which is probably why you ended up with repeat customers. You gave them something more, in addition to what they have or their friend has experienced.

Okay... now... DOSBox!

Frontend... yes, that's what I was looking for, not GUI. Well, it's a GUI setup, but... frontend. Yes.

And: Thanks for that link to D-Fend Reloaded. I've just downloaded it, so... when I'm done doing stuff online I'll move it over to my PC, install it and see how it works. Thanks, man.

You're always so useful.